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For stacking - definitely Bitcoin. For private payments Monero is currently better, you don't need to worry about if your btc are not linked to your identity and no need to coinjoin to hide the payment history.

In any way, everybody has his own use case and risk profile.

StackSats.IO 2y ago

We agree then. I may be a Bitcoin Maxi but I’m not so dogmatic as to ignore the shortcomings of it today.

Watch nostr:npub1mygerccwqpzyh9pvp6pv44rskv40zutkfs38t0hqhkvnwlhagp6s3psn5p YouTube video on how Bitcoin will adapt. We’re in the least adversarial state right now, when State’s begin to fight back the tooling will come and when it’s equal/lower friction to get a Monero level of privacy then Bitcoin will eat that network too.

It’s gonna come quickly. You’ll know when BTC updates can’t be shared on mainstream channels that we’re in the thick of it and then it’s just a case of building what people need.

Bitcoin’s network effect will see it through. When you’re aiming for every person on earth the network effect looks different to fiat big tech social media seeking to maximise time to monetise attention - it’s gonna look different and most people aren’t ready for it!

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Discussion

Keel 2y ago

Of course, we agree 💯

I'm and have been a Bitcoin Maxi myself, I thought Lightning will provide ultimate privacy , but still there are some drawbacks and complexity of the 2nd level.

So I started investigating Monero and CURRENTLY it looks better protected for spending only.

gsovereignty 2y ago

Monero is a great privacy layer for Bitcoin. BTC=>monero on one exchange and then monero=>BTC on another. Then you have coins that are totally disconnected to you.

Projects like burak's ARK are also interesting for privacy.

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

Careful with BTC -> XMR ->BTC swaps for obfuscation. Many caveats, trivial to trace if not done correctly, and not recommended unless you know what you're doing. If you do, this will help a lot:

1) Wait at least a day before swapping back into btc, but the longer the better. [to resist timing attacks]

2) Do not send the same amount back into btc in one go. Break it up into chunks. DO NOT consolidate after. [to resist amount analysis]

3) For the first swap (btc -> xmr) do on exchange A, for the second swap (xmr -> btc) do on exchange B. [prevents single exchange from seeing both swaps]

4) Do all this behind tor/i2p or at least a good VPN (mullvad, ivpn, safingIO spn). Change your tor identity or vpn server for each swap.

Recommend:

BTC -> XMR -> Spend XMR

Or even:

BTC -> Coinjoining -> Spend BTC

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

Careful with BTC -> XMR ->BTC swaps for obfuscation. Many caveats, trivial to trace if not done correctly, and not recommended unless you know what you're doing. If you do, this will help a lot:

1) Wait at least a day before swapping back into btc, but the longer the better. [to resist timing attacks]

2) Do not send the same amount back into btc in one go. Break it up into chunks. DO NOT consolidate after. [to resist amount analysis]

3) For the first swap (btc -> xmr) do on exchange A, for the second swap (xmr -> btc) do on exchange B. [prevents single exchange from seeing both swaps]

4) Do all this behind tor/i2p or at least a good VPN (mullvad, ivpn, safingIO spn). Change your tor identity or vpn server for each swap.

Recommend:

BTC -> XMR -> Spend XMR

Or even:

BTC -> Coinjoining -> Spend BTC

mark tyler 2y ago

Any reason to not only do the first of those two options? Maybe to improve privacy while not holding xmr for long periods?

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

Sorry, not clear on your first question, can you rephrase?

mark tyler 2y ago

Haha my bad.

I was thinking for a moment that the coinjoin is synergyzing with the XMR spending step.

But now I think instead the coinjoin is just to allow you to hodl bitcoin without anyone knowing for sure you still have it, even if they have the receipts of your initial purchases. Right?

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

To be clearer, I most recommend: BTC -> XMR -> Spend XMR

If for whatever you don't want to do the above: BTC -> coinjoin -> Spend BTC

My least recommended is: BTC -> XMR -> BTC because there are so many caveats. Even more potential pitfalls than just coinjoining because you are additionally involving a centralized third party, the exchange, with a full view into your swaps.

If you are just hodling, and bought KYC free, none of this is really necessary imo until you decide to move/ start spending your BTC.

mark tyler 2y ago

Ohhhhh

I read your message as this:

Or even:

BTC -> Coinjoining -> (swap to xmr) Spend XMR

Totally my bad everything makes sense now.

Reichard Könige 2y ago

Curious I found spending Monero in the US rather limited. Has that changed?

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

It's true, in the US at least, not many brick and mortar stores you can go to that accept Monero.

But shipped physical products and digital services online is a different story...I buy coffee, authentic maple syrup, grassfed beef, dairy products, raw honey, books, ammunition, VPN subs, email subs, alias email subs, burner phone number, and more with monero fairly often...

Spend Monero directly:

-monerica (massive merchant directory)

-moneromarket(dot)io

-kycnot(dot)me

...and Darknet Markets!

You can also buy gift cards with Monero, for just about anything, to fill the gaps:

-coincards

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

https://monerica.com/

https://moneromarket.io/

https://kycnot.me/services?xmr=on

https://coincards.com/us/

Reichard Könige 2y ago

Thanks!

That's a better list than what I've seen on getmonero in ages.

Reichard Könige 2y ago

Sorry for the many questions. I was wondering. I originally ran the node and gui wallet back in 2016 I think. I then moved to a node GUI Wallet with ledger device setup which allows me to use monerujo on android since it supported ledger. But Monerujo was a bit of a hot mess. I saw Cake Wallet but it didn't look like it supported hardware wallets. I then sold and got out 2019 (I know).

What wallet setup y'all like best?

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

No problem, glad to help if I can. I like to keep it simple. All I use is a software wallet for spending amounts (Liked Monerujo, but enjoying the newer "stackwallet" atm. Great UX imo.) on a phone (GrapheneOS) and also have a seperate cold storage steel plate seed backup of my savings.

These are probably the most popular and recommended software wallets in the community. Theyve come a long way since 2016/2019. All open source:

-monerujo (Android only)

-stackwallet (Bitcoin/Monero only version available - Android, iOS)

-cakewallet (Monero only version available - Desktop, Android, iOS)

-featherwallet (Desktop only)

-monero gui (Desktop only)

Ledger has always been dicey especially with the recent controversy. I think the only hardware wallet recommended right now is Trezor T model. Open source as well.

Alternatively, you can create your own cold storage:

1. Generate a seed offline

2. Generate a subaddress to save somewhere for depositing Monero into later (and/or turning the address into a QR code)

3. Etch the seed on steel plate backups (or steel washers + bolt method).

Optional: You can also use the view key for a watch-only wallet of your cold storage if you like.

If you are familiar with bitcoin SeedSigner there is a fork called "MoneroSigner" being worked on, but no ETA available.

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

Links:

https://www.monerujo.io/

https://stackwallet.com/

https://cakewallet.com/

https://featherwallet.org/

https://www.getmonero.org/downloads/

Open source phone OS

Most secure:

https://grapheneos.org/

Good alternatives:

https://calyxos.org/

https://lineageos.org/

Keel 2y ago

You stack Monero only? Or Bitcoin too ?

If both, what would be your ideal stack split between them?

Thanks a lot for your messages, they are very useful!

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

Yes, I stack both Monero and Bitcoin. I couldn't tell you an ideal split. It would just be speculation. What I can say for sure is that Bitcoin has proven to be a better longterm SoV (so far).

Because of it's default privacy, simplicity, and very cheap tx fees I find myself mostly using Monero. It's a superior MoE. Too expensive, clunky, and potentially harmful to use Bitcoin all the time especially with coinjoins.

They complement each other well imo.

Glad you find my info useful!

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

Yes, exactly!

I meant if you want to spend do one or the other for privacy/obfuscation.

-Swap into XMR and use XMR like normal

-Spend your Bitcoin by coinjoining (You can also coinjoin and send to your cold storage to hodl)

Remember that swapping to XMR or coinjoining is *not* a substitute for buying nonKYC. If you bought your BTC with KYC there will always be that record (and that record will inevitably get accidentally leaked, hacked, or given to government. If you are paying attention to these things you know it happens constantly.)

So, ideally do both, buy nonKYC and coinjoin (or swap to XMR)

https://protos.com/crypto-whales-targeted-in-wave-of-home-invasions-near-vancouver/

https://github.com/jlopp/physical-bitcoin-attacks/blob/master/README.md

Keel 2y ago

That procedure is essential for good privacy, but bitcoins going into Monero must be from a non-KYC source. If they are from a KYC source like Coinbase or Binance, the government will still consider them as yours.