Nostr Web Client

Replying to ede3d957...

Privacy is the foundation for all the things you mentioned.

Immutability depends on node operators (e.g. CEX) and miners acting honestly. But governments knowing the identity of those will make them enforce stupid things (e.g. KYC) just as government makes the public do stupid things. Privacy means you are able to do the right thing without fearing repercussions.

Censorship resistance and permissionlessness depends on miners not seeing the things they otherwise could be asked by governments to censor. But if both governments and miners don't see anything they don't know what to censor.

Centralisation of mining in only a few pools is another attack vectoe for Bitcoin (OFAC compliance already >50%]. Monero with RandomX and P2P pools also championed that field.

If you have a use case for a transparent store of value use Bitcoin. Else you are likely better off with Monero.

I think you answered your own point .. if Monero is a solution designed ground up for Privacy ( and in being constant state of scare ) ..then it will sure attract extreme privacy lovers .. by all means ..

Bitcoin is for the entire world .. it is legit .. there is no one stopping Bitcoin as long as they respect the law of the land .. and why not .. following the common law and order isn't a bad thing. . . And if gov didn't do well then there is election in democracy.. we should not expect a global monetary solution to solve our democracy issues .. there are many other tools to solve those problems - public policy is one of them ..

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Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

If you are relying on governments and laws to secure bitcoin you miss the entire point of bitcoin...

What is your "entire" point ? ..that I missed :-)

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Transacting without permission from any third parties or intermediaries

Not my entire point, but Bitcoins, it's in the first paragraph of the white paper

Your last paragraph "there is no one stopping Bitcoin as long as they respect the law of the land..." fails to grasp Bitcoins value prop. It is either permissionless or it is not.

If we are relying on laws or government to secure it or use it then there is no reason for Bitcoin. Fiat money already exists and does that.

Why should one indulge in illegal behavior ?? If tomorrow a law passes declaring Bitcoin illegal to buy in USA , I would certainly not buy it .. That is not to say , that I don't have freedom to move to a bitcoin friendly state or use my vote to change the law of land ..

The problem is some people seem to feel that bitcoin is a proxy for political process .. it is NOT. We still and we will continue to live in a democracy ... we will still vote and elect our representatives to make laws for us and we will continue to abide by the laws ..

The role of #bitcoiner is to help propagate the favorable open and freedom loving public policy through legitimate process - not short circuit the right path !

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

You don't have to. But then it begs the question: Why are you using Bitcoin? You aren't using Bitcoin without permission, so what is the benefit of using it?

And what if tomorrow your government passes a law declaring it illegal to leave the country with your Bitcoin? or that you must give it to one of their "approved custodian"? How about Bitcoiners living in North Korea? What is left is to comply or do something illegal (but not immoral)

I think you fail to see the contradiction. If you can't do something because an intermediary is stopping you from doing it (a government is an intermediary) then you are not using it without permission and it doesn't help you. It is a shittier version of fiat at that point.

If you only use Bitcoin under certain conditions that your government is allowing you to, or under some strangling regulations, then there is little to no reason for you to use Bitcoin. Digital fiat money is much more compliant and follows all their laws. But just keep in mind that you can't comply your way out of tyranny.

If the political process and public policy worked we wouldn't need a Bitcoin to begin with

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Permissionless-Principle

The question really is "what we mean by government"? As per me , it is our chosen representatives .. If they are our representatives then why would they stop our freedom ? Bitcoin is free from last 15 years in USA and there is nothing stopping it .. that said , any organization must have room to improve - and that is the role of constituents ..

If we start believing collective is inherently bad than the problem is our own body is a collective of 30 trillions cells .. so ..the idea that govs all around the world are somehow out there to harm citizens is absurd.

As for North Korea - I am not an expert and have never been there .. media narratives are hard to believe in these days .. not long ago Russia was bad , suddenly it is not so bad !

As regards to permission less attribute - it is the property of the software .. it is NOT a political statement. Even that is a very big deal given almost all the software that we normally use is permissioned even if it government has no problem with it - try using office 365 ! .. Just because it is permissionless , doesn't mean the word "Illegal" lost it's meaning. Almost everything - physical or software - around us is legal but permissioned - property , access , work .. you name it .. permissionless has lot to serve with in the realm of legal.

A little research on the reference to libbitcoin wiki you shared - as far as read - it is an alternative bitcoin client with its own agenda .. so references to their wiki might guide us on an alternative course ..

quote

Libbitcoin emerged as a protest against Bitcoin Core, which used to be under the political control of Gavin Andresen and some directors of the now-defunct Bitcoin Foundation. It's command-line only, it's cypherpunk, and it's a complete rewrite of the Bitcoin codebase that was initially started by Amir Taak

https://bitcoin-takeover.com/eric-voskuil-libbitcoin-bitcoin-culture/#:~:text=Libbitcoin%20emerged%20as%20a%20protest,initially%20started%20by%20Amir%20Taaki.

And btw , my apologies if you are part of libtitcoin team - I didn't mean any insult .. it was literally the fisrt google search that showed up ..

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Ignore the Libbitcoin stuff. I linked to it so you could understand the Permissionless Principle

Voskuil and Taaki are both great

Cyber Seagull 1y ago

There are two kinds of people: people who derive their worldview based on evaluating who said what.

And those who evaluate what was said.

Weatherall 1y ago

"the idea that govs all around the world are somehow out there to harm citizens is absurd."...

did you miss the whole multi-year coordinated global lockdown forced injection of toxins thingy?

In the hindsight yes .. but when the sensational media was throwing stories after story , everyone was scared .. I certainly dint think that somehow govs were coordinating to spread fear .. it happened ..and it was sure a shitshow .. things to learn

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

If they weren't sure what was going on they shouldn't have acted like they did and been coercing people. They get zero sympathy from me.

They should all step down and be ostracized from society for the rest of their lives at the very least. Imagine making mistakes of that magnitude at your job? Immediately fired

ede3d957... 1y ago

Is it a mistake to follow a agreed upon protocol. I don't think so.

They can roam freely because the 80% are fighting the 20% that tell them to be vigilant.

You are absolutely free to have your opinions .. that is what nostr is for .. but fortunately, there is a legal recourse to settle such cases .. it may take time but justice has a way to find itself !

ede3d957... 1y ago

No. In hindsight for you. That's a big difference.

Because you put trust and faith in the church/state. Trust in centralised entities gets exploited every single time. There is no way around it.

I really applaud your foresight , I just can't believe the conspiracy theories ..

As for your point on state and church I don't seem to understand what is the grand plan here ? Are you saying you can live without state (or faith for that matter?) .. You may be a monk , I am not ! And fortunately , I dont have any such personal experiences that make me turn faithless - God has been kind and state has been good so far .. minor issues are always there in any system and we are supposed to improve the system ..

Btw - if we dont trust the collective than we can't even trust our own mind - a collective of 100 trillion cells .. so

Being permissionless is a welcome improvement on centralized systems , read META or Google .. but it is NOT a proxy for law, governance and collective wisdom ..

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Either the law can stop it or it can't. If it can stop it, it is centralized and is not permissionless.

If the law can't stop it, then it is decentralized and permissionless.

Can't be both.

Though you should be able to choose if you want to heed collective wisdom, or not...not forced. All break-through revelations for humankind happened first by questioning "collective wisdom"

ede3d957... 1y ago

The word conspiracy theory has a different meaning for you and for me. That's all. Get rid of the world and become an observer of the things going on around you. Sometimes labels create order other times they create confusion. You want your observations to be above those labels.

Collective and individuals are an illusion. It's a powerful dance swinging from one to the other and back. Yin-Yang.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Has nothing to do with individual VS collective

Everything to do with voluntary VS coercive

You can voluntarily be part of a collective, or coerced by force to be alone in a cage

The state is by definition a monopoly on violence (even the right to defend yourself from aggressors is always under increasing attack). They can produce nothing without first taking it from others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Weatherall 1y ago

there you go again...

"everyone was scared"

No. I was enjoying bicycle rides to empty beaches in Vietnam as one of about 5 tourists in the nation. Then had eastern Europe circuit to myself for the next years lol because all the "scared" "everyone" went home to mommy, collective, and then ate shit for three years while I had entire castles to myself...

idolatry is a bitch.

YOU got scared. you dont know history. you are aping communist tropes like a good little uni boy...

its disgusting. cut it out and go read your smarter adversaries.

I was in India and attending to my mother in a hospital .. I saw people getting admitted and leaving for cremation ..

It dont think entire world conspired to panic each other .. And I sure don't know what evil history you are talking about ..

As I said , in hindsight we NOW know it was an overreaction .. but hindsight is the keyword here ..

Weatherall 1y ago

there is no we.

Hi.

Who am I in this picture? Is that a binary reference or organic?

Weatherall 1y ago

you are the sodomite.

I went to Brazil when the "Brazilian variant" made it cheap. Spoiler alert they were doing just fine. Once you saw the baseless fear mongering it started to become pretty comical.

But not everyone went to Brazil .. your were luckey ..

Weatherall 1y ago

hey got one for you...

shut. the. fuck. up.

.. did I make you so angry .. my apologies ! No seriously 😒 ..

Weatherall 1y ago

angry? nah...

you are just a loser and should shut the fuck up as you are part of the problem... thats all.

now fuck off.

okay .. losers too are humans .. you be the winner .. I am happy losing to you .. but fuck off ..nah

Weatherall 1y ago

humans, we, democracy, fear, safety, trusting experts...

dude you suck.

then why are you responding ? don't you have anything better ? o sorry ..that might hurt your fragile feelings !

Weatherall 1y ago

its not for you you dumb cunt... its so that everyone watching is boldly encouraged to stand up to the sufferers of rectal-cranial inversion 👍❤️...

the only solution left for you is ruthless and very public shaming...

now go suck some expert cock.

oh you were writing for public good .. how righteous ..

Weatherall 1y ago

wow, a man who can nimbly switch from government propagandized zombie shill to half-assed condescending sarcasm and back again...

nice touchstones loser.

isn't that a good strategy against bullies like you ? lol ...

btw ..no one is watching you .. if at all anyone ..they now know your variant of freedom and privacy gets down to hurling insults right after four - ish cross questions .. so much so for advocacy..

I consider myself to be pretty fortunate in a lot of ways. But I went to Brazil because people who I knew to be liars told me I shouldn't. And I had an awesome time.

Never trust the news or the government. The purpose of the media is to lie to you. That's their function within the system of control. It's not to inform you about anything. They will tell you anything that gets a desired behavior from you.

absolutely .. it was a social media generated pandemic .. but fear was real .. I have no problems accepting what I felt ..

Cypher Rex 1y ago

I called bullshit after about 1 week of being highly skeptic of the first news about the plandemic. The people that were insulted as NO VAXERS and CONSPIRACY THEORISTS were not scared. Some of them at most might have been very pissed off that some zombies were bothering them so much.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

"We might have turned into petty tyrants and forced people to do things against their will, ruined anyone with a different opinion, and killed or injured them in the process, but we were just scared! Oopsie 🤭"

" ruined anyone with a different opinion " ..

Is it okay for me to have a different opinion ?

Weatherall 1y ago

thats not what you have.

you have something much more intolerable...

and no - its not ok to be a fucking dickhead who cant be bothered to read.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Ooof. This logic is so absurd I'm at a loss for words. "If they are our representatives then why would they stop our freedom"...You must have missed the last century. Governments are not benign. They are not your mom, dad, or family. They are strangers that use violence against peaceful people to get what they want. You wouldn't put up with a stranger doing this to you or your loved ones. You should realize there is no principle difference.

There are so many layers and schools of thought we would have to peel back before we can even have the discussion at hand that I'm not even sure this is fruitful. You exist in another world. I suggest reading the white paper and figuring out the main value prop of Bitcoin (permissionless transactions). The point of decentralization is so the network remains unstoppable no matter what any government or entity wants

Have you been keeping up with current events? In the last two weeks there has been crackdowns on Samourai, Wasabi shutdown, Phoenix fled the USA, TornadoCash case escalated by DOJ, and the FBI subtley threatened it's citizens about using no-KYC tools. All in a couple weeks.

Bitcoin may be neutral and non-political, but it is more conducive to political philosophies that emphasize the individual since it empowers the individual.

If you read the history of politics , what we have today ..in last 30 to 50 years is the best we have ever seen .. the old days were really bad .. literally the game of thrones ..

The current problem is NOT as much govs as the big tech .. or big business driving the govs .. but then again there will always be a new equilibrium found across corporations .. they will have conflicting interests and thus govs shall become free ..

As for Samourai or Wasabi , this is not even a blip on the timescale .. such things are bound to happen for btc to find it course .. all I can say that collective and law of land is paramount .. there is no way to bypass the political process - I mean , we can't even ignore politics with in btc community ..

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Words on paper have never stopped anyone, neither citizens nor the parasite class. If someone really wants something they'll get it. If someone wants to do something they'll do it. If you like the illusion of safety it offers, okay.

You break several obscure laws a day and probably don't even realize it

I wish you well, but you obviously do not understand the point of Bitcoin. Either it is permissionless or it is not. If it is not, there is no reason for it's existence

I think the right order is Ethical -> Legal -> Permissionless

There are many permissionless things that no one will indulge in becuase they are either unethical or illegal . For example "Stealing" is permissionless but no one does it cuz it is neither ethical nor Legal ..

That said - I do agree I don't understand bitcoin as much as you might be, but I sure know that Ethical and Legal aspects are human-centric .. software (or tools) can't be a proxy for these ..

And the funny thing is bitcoin is ethically and legally allowed - and it is permission-less -- it is the best so far .. at least the ones I know of ..

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

I'm saying if one will only ever use it in a "law-abiding", "rule-following" way then I can't see why you would want to use Bitcoin. Maybe temporarily as a glorified NGU stock that you only hold? While you still can that is, before it is taxed to hell and the regulators become more entrenched.

But digital fiat is much better for staying within the lines as far as transactions go.

I tend to disagree - there is HUGE scope of improvement as far as an Ethical , Legal and sound asset are concerned - for example today most usable assets are highly inflated because rich want to hoard buildings and stocks - if that money is moved to Bitcoin , home ownership will increase many fold - and poor will be able to participate in market economics (stock market) ..

#Bitcoin does offer an easy path to migrate to favorable jurisdictions in case one apprehends a dispute - You can't easily move a building (or even stocks) but you can technically move anywhere with your cold wallet - in a legal fashion - before the water gets over the head. That said, I would probably never do that cuz I can't even leave my dentist - let alone my home and friends :-) .. I would rather have my 21 sats confiscated than pack my baggage for good :-)

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Ok, what will you do when they push another executive order 6102 saying no citizens can self-custody their Bitcoin: "Please deposit all your Bitcoin at one of our regulated approved custodians and you will be given a Bitcoin IOU." Now what? Your only alternative is to break the law if you don't want to. Now you are in the black market territory. There is already precedent for this with gold.

Ok, what if they just make a law saying you can't leave the country with your Bitcoin? Again, you now must break the law. There is no getting around it. You can ultimately be lawful or permissionless, but not both.

Jurisdictional arbitrage sounds great in theory, but 99% of people cannot just pack up and migrate like that especially nowadays. And they'll just place a burdensome exit tax so no one does. Didn't you see what happened to Roger Ver recently?

"before it is taxed to hell and the regulators become more entrenched"

This is where power of democracy comes into play . For a term , yes it can be heavily taxed - even that will be challenged in court of law . But next term will be tough for such regulations because bitcoin is good for the state , for the economy and for the people . The way I see it, it is as if people are opting against uncontrolled printer . In a way it is a powerful vote for getting back to fiscal discipline.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Sorry, our worldviews are just incompatible. Like I said if democracy overrides Bitcoin, then it can't be permissionless. If it isn't permissionless it is of no use and fails the original value prop. Think adversarially: If you need permission a government can simply make a law saying you can't self-custody your Bitcoin, you must use their Bitcoin IOUs, and they can print as many Bitcoin IOUs as they want for it's citizens. Now we are back to square one.

Consent is everything. I don't think something magically becomes morally good just because a system is a democracy and more people win a vote over a minority (which is not how laws are decided in reality anyway either)

In that case, a gang of rapists could win a "vote" over their victim. A mob could "vote" to take all your stuff. Makes no sense.

You have a very "solarpunk" take on crypto and paternalistic view of government:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA3YZVDUN5s

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

While I agree with the moral sentiment it is impossible to have the order you propose by definition...if "Permissionless" is subservient to "Legal" or "Ethical"...then it isn't permissionless

It's just a tool, it is neutral, it can be used for good or bad like anything else in life. That is all on the person using it.

Weatherall 1y ago

democracy - flogging a dead horse until you are then flogged.

yet ..it is the best we have unless the grand plan is to go back to stone age .. not saying we should not try a better form of governance .. but who is there to articulate if we dint even show some commitment to collective ..

btw the social thread we are chatting on is a collective .. very few humans can live alone ..

Weatherall 1y ago

so, stone age is only option you can see?

Let me know ..or point me to link .. where anyone has conceived a better political system that the one we have .. a comprehensive system - not just money ..

someone needs to build roads , arrange water , bring commodities to market , incentive the manufacturing of commodities in the first place ..

bitcoin helps , but it doesn't replace the the rigor of running a nation ...

add law and order please .. not everyone can protect themselves .. not me at least !

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Utilitarian arguments would justify any atrocity in history. Your fear or lack of imagination on how to solve a problem doesn't magically mean you now get to initiate aggression on peaceful people.

It has nothing to do with living alone. The social thread we are chatting on is a VOLUNTARY collective. Nostr isn't claiming I elected them as my representative when I didn't, saying we owe them money, setting rules, and sending armed goons to my home to throw me in a cage or kill me if I resist.

goatmeal 1y ago

bitcoin and monero are not proxies for a political process, you are right about that. it's still very ugly and embarrassing to bend over backwards for totalitarians. please let my number keep going up, I promise to be a good boy. absolutely disgusting. you shouldn't invite elizabeth warren into your version control system. if she is terrorizing you, go ahead and deal with her, but don't cripple your computer project in an attempt to appease her.

Monero is a shitcoin leavering up Privacy card .. huh