Progressives vs Conservativs is the ultimate tension.

Politically speaking, if we set aside the extremists on each side, the middle ground debate between well-informed people is often a battle between the following:

Progressives want to move society forward, but often in too centralized and artificial manner. At their best, they want to help the disenfranchised among us and focus on what they see as the bigger picture. At their worst, they get into eugenics and central control and underestimate the efficiency of market forces.

Conservatives often want to hold society where it is, even when resisting new change that could be good. At their best, they support responsibility and virtue and hard work, while at their worst, they harm new ideas or minorities that deviate from their local culture, and hold back good new ideas.

And how we interpret these forces changes over time. Sometimes science is at the forefront, and sometimes politics/culture is. Copernicus and Galileo were scientific progressives, and were punished for it despite being right. But then Marx and Woodrow Wilson were political progressives, and had success despite later being wrong in many ways. And then ironically, Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson were both considered progressive US presidents, but in many ways they couldn't be more different. Conservatives today have more respect for the former than the latter.

Both fundamental forces, progress and conservatism, are necessary. We need to move forward, but with awareness of our past. Cautiously progressive, and virtuously conservative. Humble in our presumed ability to control the world, but empathetic in our outreach to groups that don't necessarily fit within the existing culture. Something akin to Libertarianism fits the bill, but with more widespread support. When Libertarianism fails to catch on in any of 200 or so countries, its lack of success needs to be examined. Why isn't Libertarianism popular?

Some of this I argue is due to technology. The existing tech of fast transactions but slow settlements gives power to central banks and governments. Technology dictates politics.

For example, prior to the invention of the printing press, it wasn't possible to have a democratic republic over a large landmass. That required fast information transfer and widespread literacy. Ancient people were not "ignorant" to have their prior social structures; they outright lacked the technology to even attempt our current norms. And today, can we imagine if new technology makes our existing norms irrelevant? What if capital flows as freely as information flows? Does that change politics? I think so.

In the modern era, central planners have a technological edge. It's easy for them to consolidate the banks and central banks, since everything is reliant on credit-based transfers. The invention of bitcoin and fast non-credit transfer starts to mess with that, but it takes time with liquidity and network effects.

I expect the next few decades to change substantially. But as they do, I consider progressivism vs conservatism to be a useful framework to keep in mind. Openness to change vs preservation of what works well now. In all technological environments, era after era, this is ultimately the key social debate. As monetary technology stalled in recent decades, politics took center stage. As monetary technology advances over the next couple of decades, I expect that technology to start impacting and framing conversations more and more, as it starts setting the clear path.

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„progressive“ is more like an euphemism. In ex-communist countries communists are conservative.

That's a good point. In Spain the same thing applies to fascists/frankists... when I lived there for a while people mentioned these "old regime people" exactly in the same manner as we (in post communist country) talk about the old commies.

Natalie Smolenski introduced me to the phrase “political vibes” recently to state how many things that should be built around a political or social science is really just “political vibes” getting in the way.

Too much political vibin’

Could we even reach a place of a science of the politic is the question in a hyper partisan, post-trust age (perhaps hyper-trust being right around and after WWII). Bitcoin of course gives us some framing and a tool in the post-trust age (ideally moving away from reliance on trust-based systems, at least in money)

Based on my analysis of prior Fourth Turnings or long term debt cycles, usually extremism or semi-extremism tends to win. Polarization doesn’t continue forever; one side wins. Meanwhile, I monitor current social trends. The existing state of the Hamas/Israel debate shows how polarized it is. Prior to that, fiscal issues showed the polarization.

In the 1930s/1940s, progressivism won. The financial social state was expanded, but journalists faced direct attacks on their first amendment rights to cover what was going on, Japanese people were put into camps, and gold was a banned from ownership in the land of the free. The idea of fiscal central planning was at the forefront, and social central planning was put aside.

In the 2020s/2030s, I expect a national conservatism to likely win overall, but we will see. By this I mean similarly anti-media, and then like anti-LGBT or anti-certain groups, but with a strong pragmatic national economic focus. Stronger social conservatism but weaker fiscal control. I think that has the vibes in this next decade, but I keep watching.

I hope bitcoin can upend/disrupt some of this. But in the near term, probably not! We’ll see

I’m literally watching Harry Potter right now too with my wife 😂

Don’t change Lyn

I am older than you,but you always look like my old sister

> Why isn't Libertarianism popular?

Status Quo bias and a controlled Overton window mostly.

Libertarians tend to find more common ground with both Progressives & Conservatives than P&C do with each other, but the two dominant sides don’t understand the totality of the libertarian view (whereas they have a much better idea of their opposite) so they focus solely on where they disagree.

Shift the Overton Window and the political outlook will be dragged along with it.

This is slowly happening as M5M gets exposed as the liars they are. Probably the largest voices in media now are Joe Rogan and Tucker Carlson. Rogan is a Classic Liberal, he’d be green on a political compass but close to the centre. Tucker has clearly changed from being a neocon into more of a right libertarian (anti war, big pharma skeptic, pro small gov), probably yellow on a political compass but more right.

Takes time but we are seeing and experiencing the shift. Nobody, P&C included, wants the old narrative machine which lies for both sides and protects a corrupt establishment which seeks to put everyone against each other while they busy themselves looting the treasury.

Have you read “What’s Our Problem?” by Tim Urban?

Dunno if progressive vs consevative is the main political spectrum. For me it's individualists vs collectivists and then everything else.

I also wonder why libertarianism isn't more "popular". Maybe most people think it's good to force everyone to "share" a portion of their wealth and obey the govt, because we all are half-raised in govt controlled school system that shapes ones mind to accept the hierarchy. Doing things that don't make sense just because you are told to do them over and over.

So most people internalyze that as a pattern for many things in their life, expecting the same thing from other people too, even forcing them. Remember covid? If I suffer wearing the mask, you should too!

Wouldn't the ultimate tension be between the rulers and the governed? Everything else is moot to me.

Your post is attracting a lot of attention.

Added to the https://nostraco.in/hot feed

Have you ever read Why Liberalism Failed?

I think it comes down to the productive class versus the parasites (indirect and direct government workers, government contractors, heavy regulated industries, welfare recipients of all forms).

The parasites want central planning so they can suck out as much energy out of the productive class.

The productive class want deventralisation so they can thrive in a free market environnement.

The biggest problem for the productive class is taxation (income tax, capital gains tax and inflation tax) because it gives almost unlimitef power to the central planners and the parasites.

The fight is between freedom warriors and central planners.

Thomas Sowell’s “A Conflict of Visions” published in 2007 comes to mind, as he describes the dynamics between the “constrained vision” and “unconditioned vision.” Highly recommend reading, in my humble opinion.

Also, the definition of “conservative” and what it means to be one has been well described by Roger Scruton. Such a person tends to be cautious, and incremental when it comes to change, testing ideas against reality, looking at the effects, of that action, rather than understood as just someone trying to preserve what is.

progressives = children

conservatives = old people

both are retards

Wow, Lyn! Thank you for articulating this so well. I believe you lay out so clearly how I, and probably many other people, feel.

I hope true freedom (without monetary oppression) is able to continue to move further down the economic ladder with the technologies we have now and most of us here have already adopted and adore.

I hope that the benefits of separating money and state are so self evident and irrefutable that we collectively and voluntarily choose to do so.