Vitamin C: The Carnivore Death Spiral

The dominant theory of carnivore diet regarding Vitamin C seems to be that 1) Vit C competes with carbohydrate so you need much less (by orders of magnitude) when you cut out carbs completely and 2) Fresh meat has some Vitamin C.

I think carnivores fall into a vitamin C trap one of a few ways:

1) Eating meat which has had the Vitamin C denatured, such as cooked jerky or fully cooked sausages.

2) Eating "animal-based" foods like honey (which has a ton of sugar and only a tiny sliver of Vitamin C. I think this is why Paul Saladino went from carnivore -> carnivore + honey -> carnivore + honey + fruit.

3) Eating processed meats which have had sugar added, such as lunch meats, jerky or sausages.

4) Eating sugar-containing dairy like plain yogurt, cheese, and milk, especially if pastuerized (denaturing any Vit C).

5) Occasional cheating with sushi rice, "keto" candy, or other carbs. I find this particularly easy to do since I regularly meet my adult family for meals at restaurants.

I think the human desire for sweetness is at least partially a pursuit of Vitamin C.

I believe I'd become deficient in Vit C due to a combination of the above factors, and I'm now making an effort to 1) do a one-time load of C with kiwi fruit, 2) cut out any remaining carbs from my diet going forward and 3) if I do "cheat" in the future, focus on doing so with fresh fruit or eating some high-C fruits to offset the carb impact.

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Discussion

#carnivore #meatstr #diet

But, humans aren't carnivores, we're omnivores. Agreed most of our modern diets include way too much sugar and are otherwise imbalanced.

We need the carbs (and many other nutrients) in whole fruits and vegetables.

We don’t need the carbs with consistent food resource availability. We have the capacity to convert carbohydrates into adipose tissue stored energy in fat to survive lean times. This is an important and often overlooked distinction.

Which carbs are essential?

And which nutrients?

THERE IS ZERO CARBOHYDRATES NECESSARY FOR HUMANS TO EXIST AND THRIVE, DISEASE FREE MIGHT I ADD

ZERO

Most carnivores are technically omnivorous, as are most herbivores. Lions occasionally eat grass. Deer occasionally eat carrion. Many plant-eaters also eat some insects.

However most omnivores heavily specialize in some area(s) of food availability, with areas of specialization differentiating between insects, verterbrate meat, fruit, leaves/grasses, tubers, seeds, gums, and fungus.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4100522/

As to human evolution in particular, there are a variety of lines of evidence supporting human carnivory such as stomach pH (and many other modern anatomical features), nitrogen isotope evidence of paleolithic trophic level, and direct artefacts such as bone with butcher marks and cave paintings of animal hunts.

not sure i wholly agree about us being true omnivores; although, we are capable of consumption of veg., it is not an ideal source of nutrition; besides from not being able to digest the cellulose part (about 1/3 or so--the fiber) of plants, the cellular structure inhibits absorption and just makes the whole digestive process inefficient thus large amounts of byproducts (waste). Garbage in, garbage out. Observe your surroundings and ask why are so many people sick, obese, and plagued with chronic illnesses, let alone the US spends probably the most on health care and ranks poorly in overall health. I am a firm believer that metabolic disorders are the root cause of most health issues and fairly easily fixed by a simple prescription, not Jardiance, something free and only words, STOP EATING CARBOHYDRATES . SIMPLE AND YET TRULY EFFECTIVE. If anyone wishes to literally turn back the clock and stop disease is its tracks, FOLLOW THE SCRIPT THAT ACTUALLY HEALS PEOPLPE AND NOT TREAT SYMPTOMS . ALL THE WHILE KEEPING THE HEALTH CRISIS SILENT AND PRESCRIPTION COMMERCIALS AT AN ALL TIME PEAK. WE KEEP GETTING SICKER WHILE THE RICH GET RICHER. THE BIG PUSH IS PLANT BASED THIS AND PLANT BASED THAT, AND WHO'S PUSHING THIS NARRATIVE, DEFINITELY NO ONE I'D TRUST, WOULD YOU?

Oh, I definitely don't trust the mainstream "health" narrative AT ALL. Never said I did, nor that I ascribe to their food pyramid. I do not. Perhaps you'd be interested in an actual discussion?

I am currently reading "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston A Price. Wonderful, fascinating read! It is infuriating, really, that we've had this detailed study available for nearly a hundred years and it has been ignored by health professionals etc. I guess that's corporatocracy at work.

For my part, I will continue to study and experiment, and seek to be the healthiest I can be.

with a RDA of a 60-75% recommended carb intake, it's plainly obvious that something is definitely awry. Look at enormous magnitude of imbalance happening in the current society; it just abounds with an array abnormalities for the Animal Kingdom, such as countless autoimmune disorders, hormonal dysfunction, and neurological issues, to name a few; this is the epitome of imbalance in nature. Are we the most intelligent species? Or, just to smart for our own good?

Does it seem strange that despite so much technological advancement and innovation that there are pretty much not a single cure for any of the "chronic diseases" that plague the world, yet there is a pill, potion, or lotion, for every single symptom of each disease and a medical practitioner for just about every single organ, system, or part of the human anatomy. And not to mention that throughout all stages of academia, two most important aspects of our lives, HEALTH and WEALTH, is ever discussed or taught.

sorry about the rant and complete disdain for how we've been lied and neglected to by our very own GOV'Ts. A true travesty. An we continue to be divisive just as they want, because if united as a whole there would be no way in hell this kind of tyrannical behavior would continue unchallenged. BTC is a breath of clean air and a long awaited taste of true freedom.

This is exactly why canines produce vitamin C in their liver. Why do people need to be so extreme? We aren’t carnivores, we are mostly and selectively carnivores, because it makes sense biologically. If you are a bad hunter, eat some carbohydrates to build adipose fat energy storage, then get back to hunting. ☺️

Starches would tend to deplete Vitamin C assuming the two carnivore Vitamin C assumptions I pointed out are correct.

The most common complements to verterbate meat are fruit and seeds (eg nuts, grains) as reported in Munoz & Alroy 2014, the article I linked elsewhere in the conversation.

I think humans in particular are primarily scavengers & hunters (especially with self-scavenging by taking large prey to a group site and eating it for an extended period of time) and the main supplemental food for us is fruit. Humans seem to have some seed intolerances (eg to lectin and gluten) so I think that aspect of it is less pronounced or absent in human evolutionary history. We are also distantly descended from browsers (and then scavengers and then hunters and then pastoralists) who probably ate a fair bit of fruit.

All interesting!

I wasn't thinking of an "essential" carb, more of the fact that our bodies require glucose to function properly. I realize we make glucose from protein at need, but in reading some carnivore diet experiences I did come across things such as being so low carb they were unable to sleep through the night.

For nutrients, I was thinking of flavonoids and fibers 🤔

I don't say that being an "omnivore" means you eat absolutely anything edible in your vicinity. Of course there are specialized diets. And, yes, I'm aware of gorillas eating bugs, and white-tailed deer eating baby birds etc etc.

Anyway, interesting discussion, I plan to research more.

I hope you find the answer to your vitamin c puzzle!

Fiber is indigestible by definition (otherwise we call it carbohydrate)

I sometimes have difficulty sleeping, most especially if I've had lots of calories (from fat) late in the day