Nostr Web Client

Replying to

ChipTuner

Hi! Yeah i've given it a try a few times

1. it does not ask my nip07 extension for my preferred relay list

2. Once it bootstrappted (and I allowed websockets) it connected to 67 relays (presumably outbox)

3. Once it found my nip65 relay set, it did not disconnect from the other 67 relays it connected to

4. There is no obvious button that allows me to disconnect from those connected relays

5. When I view a relay feed, or use a relay-feed url, all 67 relays don't seem to disconnect

6. Nip65 relays don't allow selecting read/write from, so when I want to disconnect, it forces a mutation of my nip65 relay list which I may not want all the time.

I really like the interface, but I'm particular about who my system connects to an why as you can see. Id just like the ability to minimize my fingerprint. I think most of these issues are related to outbox and I respect your choice, but as a privacy advocate, I don't like telling 67 people all at once: HI, I AM HERE, ITS ME CHIPTUNER, FROM NEW YORK, CAN I HAVE NOTES PLEASE, I'M SCROLLING MY FEED NOW.

Cesar Dias 3mo ago

Appreciate the feedback, but without the outbox model nostr just simply doesn't work well, I used to have a outbox toggle long time ago but ended up removing as I found it didn't make much sense, the NIP-65 relay lists were meant to "where you publish your notes" and "where people reply to you" as write and read relays, not as "the only relays the client will connect to", it makes no sense to fetch notes from the people you follow in your 4 write relays as they not necessary are writing there.

Also, even If I didn't had the outbox model implemented, people are quoting events everywhere and the client has to follow those quoted events through relay hints, opening more connection we don't control.

Even if you are viewing a single relay feed I am still fetching quotes and user metadata that might live outside the current relay feed, the client is also fetching kind 10012 (relay favorites from the sidebar) from people who write in different relays, I can kinda hardcode that to avoid opening some connections but it won't fix the 100% problem.

I understand your concerns but that's how the protocol encourage things, decentralisation at the expensive of privacy.

But I've been working on a open source multiplex/proxy relay that you can configure in the client and will bring 60 connections to 1 connection at all times, but It's not ready yet.

Also for reference: https://github.com/vitorpamplona/amethyst/issues/1426#issuecomment-3228578798

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

ChipTuner 3mo ago

There's got to be a better way. I currently use an old version of nostrudel without outbox relay connections. I don't have any major discovery/content issues at the moment, but I wouldn't know if I did?

This tradeoff just seems to big to not be optional. I hope your project succeeds, but until that option arrives, I won't be advocating the use of it or any client that heavily utilizes outbox connections like this without an alternative. I've already voiced my opinions of amethyst.

hodlbod 3mo ago

Outbox maximizes decentralization, and so needs to be the base paradigm for content discovery (at least in terms of social graph). But that doesn't prevent us from trading off some decentralization for privacy/efficiency as needed. Read proxies work well (whether they scrape and serve or proxy in real time).

Hubs are also not bad, damus and primal's relays have most content, which is probably why you didn't notice any missing content. But if someone got kicked off the hubs, they would be gone.

I'd also like to see support for relay white and blacklists, which would allow the user to tune their connections if desired.

ChipTuner 3mo ago

> Outbox maximizes decentralization,

And I'm going to repeatedly say, yeah I get it. But someone else's reach affects MY privacy in this trade off. I don't care about their reach (or obviously mine) if it requires that my readers tell 70 other servers in the same few second who they are, where they live, and what they're doing.

In this example, someone could setup a relay for the purpose of associating npubs as IP addresses, as an outbox realy, and most of nostr would connect to it without knowing or having the ability to disable that. Sounds like a pretty good idea to prove a point imo. Id be willing to bet a majority of nostr users don't use VPNs 100% of the time, and if using a wifi connection we'd likely get down to the neighborhood accuracy of the user.

There still must be some degree of trust between users and relays when it comes to privacy, outbox appears to take a hot steaming shit all over that.

> Hubs are also not bad, damus and primal's relays have most content, which is probably why you didn't notice any missing content.

TheForrest and nostr.land :)

> I'd also like to see support for relay white and blacklists, which would allow the user to tune their connections if desired.

This would be use, I currently have a mix of DNS and web extensions to block these relay connections, and boy is that a pain in the ass.