Replying to Avatar preston

Drivechains

Alright people, we are playing a game of chess here. The one thing, the absolute one thing, we can't do is give up the king. To give up the king, in my humble opinion, is to mess up the base layer. This mistake would disrupt the delicate incentive structure that ensures sound money. That sound money pegs the extremely fragile credit markets and out-of-control G7 policymakers that are creating clown world with their CB fiat policies.

We don’t need the sound, pegged, money to move fast, we don’t need the money to do smart swoopty things, we just need it to be pegged, immutable, and digitally sailable to actually stop the madness of clown world.

By introducing a whole lot of technical complexity to the base layer and potentially screwing with the incentives all so we can connect to a bunch of centralized shitcoin projects is like playing offense with the king when you’re down 7 pieces and the other player still has their entire back row at their disposal.

A. Why the rush!?

B. Why not just go use Monero if you need that level of anominity in your transactions. Why do you have to have it in a wrapper via drivechains?

C. Why risk the king without deep understanding and testing of the technical risk and potential change to incentives?

The beauty of Bitcoin is you can build it and softfork it, and we’ll let the community vote with their nodes. BUT, I for one, have no use for drivechains (that doesn’t mean everyone is like me). And as a result, I will not be updating my node and running any attempted “secret” softfork updates by the miners.

Why do you assume Drivechain introduces "a whole lot of technical complexity to the base layer"? It's such a simple upgrade. SegWit and Taproot were much more complex.

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Discussion

Why do you assume people need a peg from Bitcoin to centralized shitcoin projects?

I don't get your point.

Centralized shitcoin projects already exist and many of them have a centralized peg to Bitcoin, but their shitcoin is the native currency and a fundamental part of everything.

Drivechain is about making non-shitcoin projects that use Bitcoin, help Bitcoin, pay fees to Bitcoin and increase Bitcoin network-effect.

Are these non-shitcoin projects with us in the room right now?

Rootstock is a merge mined layer 2 that supplies miners with more txn fees than LN, increasing the BTC security budget. It has about 2/3rds the amount of BTC on it as are in LN channels. It's been around for almost 6 years and allows people in countries where it is hard to access the USD to save in Bitcoin backed stablecoins. So yeah, it's in the room

I don't happen to believe in the "security budget" nor in stablecoins.

I've encountered a bunch of people that think there is no "security budger" issue, but none of them have given any explanation on why. Do you have one? A link, maybe? You don't think Bitcoin mining has to be paid for?

I believe that the network works at any compensation level, there is no need to throw extra fees at the miners for their own sake. If some miners cannot survive they'll sell their equipment on the cheap to others that will keep mining profitably.

What about the problem that a network with very small hashpower becomes an easy target for government attacks?

Why should hashrate ever decrease, though? ASIC can be liquidated cheaper and cheaper until it's profitable to plug them again.

A government can then buy a bunch of cheap ASICs and destroy Bitcoin?

No

Yes. Or you, or anyone else.

Andreas destroyed that argument in two minutes.

https://cdn.nostr.build/p/nb11636.mp4

I miss Andreas 🫶🏾

He should be here.

Yeah

On the short term (2 weeks). The difficulty adjustment will increase and the attacker should employ more capital and more power until it reach its objective or the attack becomes prohibiting costly.

No concern about that scenario.

The 51 % attack is also related how colluded the mining entities are; here again, is the decentralization of mining entities which brings solution to the situation.

By the way, these numbers give me evidence, there is participation in mining operation which could survive the coming halving. So no rush on this fee and mining topic addressed by @fiatfaj

web.public-pool.io/#/

These are too high, and they have to be cut to the Bone..⚖️👮‍♂️😠

Fees are too high, and have to be cut to the Bone. Dang autocorrect..🖕

If the total miner reward per block is $10 how much hashpower do you think you will get?

Define first, what do you understand or mean by “security”.

Mining is exactly designed to be a drudgery. The value miners derive from mining is supposed to be a lot less than the value of bitcoin being useful in the market.

See this video of Saifedean Ammous:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=Z2Znc5zkIhk&feature=share7

Bitcoin doesn’t need “help” from other protocols and projects. Bitcoin needs central bankers to keep going out and adding another 10 trillion units into the system and then handing it out to people for performing no work. And they will…they have to…because the liquidity isn’t flowing into the hands of the broader populace because all the equity has been consolidated into the hands of a couple people. Bitcoin just needs to be left the F alone. The people running clown world are doing all the heavy lifting. “Don’t interrupt your enemy when they’re getting ready to make the same mistake…yet again”.

It feels like you’re talking past one another.

I agree, but then when Bitcoin becomes this thing that everybody desires and not only very small minority then it is time for people to actually transact with it day to day.

When that happens, if we don't have a system in place to allow people to pay for their coffee in a noncustodial way (or at least have the option to do that even if custodians will always exist and that's fine) and also have some viable ways to get some privacy for their utxos -- if that is not in place, then we will just hand the gold back again to the next generation of central bankers.

Yep, 100%. Your statements about foundational layers of systems being necessarily simple are spot-on, IMHO. I wonder if we are at the beginning of Block Wars v2. While I'm very excited about BTC, I occasionally fret that we will eventually kill this golden goose.

If you want fancy L1 function, buy ETH.

Everything is good for Bitcoin 🙂

Well said

A C C E L E R A T E

Fuck drivechains... im dying on this hill..

Only a fucking idiot SCAMMER would want SIDECHAINS

https://void.cat/d/PsTmpu76nGS1WjNcuSAcSa.webp

IT BE LIKE DUH HOLLACOSS N SHIT DUH WAY WE SPEW ASHES CEPT THIS SHIT RIGHT HURR BE REAL N AWL THAT NIGGA FUH JOOZ WE DUH REAL JOOZ ANYWAY :cat_stare_activated: