I'll type this in ancient Odell script so you might understand.
BLOCKS AND UNCONFIRMED TRANSACTIONS ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
Do you think that statement is true or false?
Discussion
Of course they are not the same, but for the purpose of “will i relay this tx” at the end of the day they are the same, just different timing.
True. Not complicated. The real crux of the debate is people don’t want that shit in the chain at all.
Right, i agree with this, but relay is not the place to solve it
Ok so if we agree there, let’s move forward and try to find a real solution
The problem is that you would have to censor coin *spends* to censor witness jpgs, which I can’t imagine we will ever do
Definitely not. But what about within the scope of OP return? While not perfect, we should at least be directionally moving towards this usage being harder not easier. That’s another sentiment most Knots users have which Core doesn’t appreciate.
I haven’t gone through the entire history of Bitcoin but to be honest, I speculate there already is a lot of stuff on-chain which is potentially illicit. Filters are never going to be perfect but giving up is also not acceptable.
We could hardfork a hard cap to its size, but it would just push people to solutions that would bloat the utxoset which could be really bad
Or you could return to the original usecase and remove OP_RETURN from standardness.
I’ve never understood the bloat argument. If you have a block full of 4,000 monetary transactions, doesn’t that ‘bloat’ it just as much as 4,000 spam transactions? Is it an issue due to the amount of dust addresses spam creates?
Also, uncapped OP return allows for decently big JPEGs to easily get on chain. Do other methods of embedding arbitrary data also allow for that size?
The "set" of UTXOs would be larger if packed into pubkeys (multisigs where the pubkey outputs are the actual data not "real" keys)
This puts more demand on your node from a validation and storage perspective. This means it's more expensive to run a full archival node.
OP_RETUN data can be pruned as it has no effect on the chainstate.
Let’s get a setting where you can prune all of it
no, op_return are provably unspendable, meaning you can prune them from the utxoset. If you store data in bare pubkey outputs (like the butcoin whitepaper): These are *permanent* and you have to store them forever, even on pruned nodes, since you can’t prove they are unspendable. This would be a growing fixed size burden for pruned nodes which is really bad.
Thats why encouraging op_return for data is a good thing, even if it’s not the most economical compared to witness data.
And yes most jpegs are stored on witness stacks for the witness discount, not op_return
Got it. Thank you. So if OP Return data is harmless and can all be pruned, how can users remove it all from their nodes?
It is removed automatically from the utxoset, but its still in blocks
Being in the blocks is the issue though. Do you believe there is nothing which can be done about it?
of course you could try to do something about it, but it would have to be pretty heavy handed, require hard forks, and have lots of complicated rules to try to censor any form of data looking transaction.
But again it would just push people into using steganography and hiding data in keys (utxo bloat) which would be impossible to detect automatically.
Its a censorship resistant network, i don’t see how you’re going to stop people from spending money to get these types of transactions in
I think our best leverage is to price it out via legitimate usage and perhaps a small block hardfork
I like small blocks. I can’t see it ever happening. I’ll continue to run core version 25.1.0 for now. I appreciate your time and effort.
We should’ve scaled slower, lightning allows for billions of transactions a year which has pushed the cost down so low.
> legimita usage
Lol.
Whats funny? I don’t think spam and jpegs are legitimate usage of bitcoin, but i also accept i can’t stop them.
It's funny that there should be some legitimate usage for Bitcoin.
Teleportable gold man its pretty cool
It bought you a pin at Bitcoin Asia the other day the whole rest of the trip was paid in fiat.
Yes i also agree we should be trying to make it a medium of exchange and not just a store of value, since that should help adoption and get freedom units in the hands of more people
You've been trying for 15 years.
Lessee how nostr:npub19ma2w9dmk3kat0nt0k5dwuqzvmg3va9ezwup0zkakhpwv0vcwvcsg8axkl goes with his bookshop.
Do blocks= txs?
You see, I don't have a choice on whether to relay a BLOCK but I do have a choice whether to relay a single TRANSACTION.
So, an analogy:
If I deliver packages and letters but a letter comes through witha giant dick drawn on the face of it. I can mark that letter as "Undeliverable" and send it back to sender.
BUT if that SAME LETTER is in a box with a bunch of other letters I MUST deliver the box even if there are bad letters inside. I am fine with this as it doesn't break my delivery rules.
sounds like a lot of cope when you will end up relaying the tx regardless, but i guess if it makes you feel better somehow then sure
So to review you conflate two separate things, you say something is inevitable despite the goal is never stated, then because you can't comprehend people not applying information theory to the hacking of a monetary network, they are "coping". I am crazy to keep talking with you, I need to really stop doing this.