You never trust relays. That's why you connect to multiple. DB insert is more costly than DB query, especially for replaceable events. Relays will certainly not give you an incentive to spam them with those. Deleting in-demand events after a day would create such an incentive.
Discussion
>From: Giszmo47 at 07/29/22 10:49:23 on wss://wlvs.space
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>You never trust relays.
True.
>That's why you connect to multiple.
True.
>DB insert is more costly than DB query, especially for replaceable events.
That depends entirely upon your DB. more-speech, for example, keeps everything in RAM and simply writes to flat-files upon shutdown. Inserts don't cost much at all. Indeed, the concept of "insert" doesn't really exist. (sigh) Databases are just so 1990s.
>Relays will certainly not give you an incentive to spam them with those.
I've recieved no objections so far. Indeed, what are the relays doing other than saving and fowarding events. kind:0 is an event like any other. There's nothing special about it from the relay's point of view.
>Deleting in-demand events after a day would create such an incentive.
I don't understand that statement. What is an "in-demand" event?
By the way, this particular message is one of the reasons that I like long messages.
I'll stick to short form as Astral has a limit but also find long form hard to follow. If you are interested in only one aspect of the discussion, it's easier if it splits up.
Relays use DBs and kind-0 is special in that it is replaceable. Relays are supposed to only share the last received, so they have to filter out or delete older ones.
>From: Giszmo47 at 07/29/22 12:19:07 on wss://nostr-relay.wlvs.space
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>Relays use DBs and kind-0 is special in that it is replaceable. Relays are supposed to only share the last received, so they have to filter out or delete older ones.
NIP-01 is not quite that demanding. It says: "A relay may delete past set_metadata events once it gets a new one for the same pubkey." I had previously missed the fact that a relay MIGHT only send the latest metadata.
Honestly, I think that's a mistake. Deleting history is a dangerous precedent IMHO. I wonder what #[6] thinks about that?
In NostrPostr I copied what I found in another relay implementation: Set older entries to "hidden". As I find the evolving follows graph highly interesting, I do not intend to delete that data any soon. There is also people offering historic data that I missed.
>From: unclebobmartin at 07/29/22 18:44:08 on wss://wlvs.space
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>>From: Giszmo47 at 07/29/22 12:19:07 on wss://nostr-relay.wlvs.space
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>>Relays use DBs and kind-0 is special in that it is replaceable. Relays are supposed to only share the last received, so they have to filter out or delete older ones.
>
>NIP-01 is not quite that demanding. It says: "A relay may delete past set_metadata events once it gets a new one for the same pubkey." I had previously missed the fact that a relay MIGHT only send the latest metadata.
>
>Honestly, I think that's a mistake. Deleting history is a dangerous precedent IMHO. I wonder what #[7] thinks about that?
And now I'll use the correct pubkey for #[8]. At least I think it's the correct one. There are five profiles out there that claim to be fiatjaf.
querying kind3 helps with this a bit
This bothers me on two fronts.
1. As I stated before I don't like the idea that relays can delete old data -- it's a kind of temporal censorship.
2. I don't like the idea that relays are a kind of personal database that allow users to squirrel away their private data. There are plenty of other options for that.
>From: jb55 at 07/30/22 09:43:19 on wss://nostr-relay.wlvs.space
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>querying kind3 helps with this a bit
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I find it's useful for building a web of trust, and seeing followers for discoverability. but yeah it's optional I guess... can't imagine using a twitter-like client without it though.
I definitely want the web of trust. So perhaps you can descibe how kind-3 serves that purpose. The way I look at it, it's no better than a file containing pubkeys and petnames that I keep on my laptop.
>From: jb55 at 07/30/22 09:54:31 on wss://relay.nostr.info
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>I find it's useful for building a web of trust, and seeing followers for discoverability. but yeah it's optional I guess... can't imagine using a twitter-like client without it though.
metadata and follows (kind 0 and 3) are not only private data. Both are vitally important to build a social network.
I understand why kind:0 is vital to a social network (although there are challenges such as the five fiatjafs).
I do not understand why kind:3 is vital. As far as I can see kind:3 is equivalent to a file on my laptop. Unless, of course, I can query your kind:3. If the latter is the case, then #[8]'s web of trust starts to make sense.
>From: Giszmo at 07/30/22 19:42:04 on wss://nostr-pub.wellorder.net
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>metadata and follows (kind 0 and 3) are not only private data. Both are vitally important to build a social network.
Of course you can query kinds:[3] of other authors:[32e1827635450ebb3c5a7d12c1f8e7b2b514439ac10a67eef3d9fd9c5c68e245].
That gives me something new to think about. Thanks!
>From: Giszmo at 07/30/22 20:10:28 on wss://relay.nostr.info
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>Of course you can query kinds:[3] of other authors:[32e1827635450ebb3c5a7d12c1f8e7b2b514439ac10a67eef3d9fd9c5c68e245].
The client db is never the expensive part. Relays will handle the data of millions of clients. They will eventually not be for free.
>From: Giszmo47 at 07/29/22 12:19:51 on wss://relay.nostr.info
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>The client db is never the expensive part. Relays will handle the data of millions of clients. They will eventually not be for free.
Perhaps. A wise man once advised me that, when it comes to software, focus first on the here and now; tomorrows problems will come soon enough. In any case it seems to me that appending metadata events is no more expensive than appending any other kind of event; and that UPDATING metadata is the more expensive of the options.
The current situation is that you can spam relays and download a full DB dump trice a minute without penalty. Lets hope it does not stay like that for long.
nips for events consider kind-0 replaceable, so relays will only give you one per pubkey.