Core devs were hating on whirlpool?

Liquid will be huge. People don't use it right now because it's intimidating. Liquid is perfect for trading securities. What Wall Street wants is to trade stocks the way Cryptos trade - but without the Cryptos. No brokerage overhead/infrastructure - just software, secure and auditable, and automatic execution of puts and calls. Currently bitcoin's version of bonds are traded on liquid - trading chunks of future hash, which miners can sell ahead of time the same way farmers sell their crops via futures. So its like, hash futures with a coupon rate. That's the basis of the future credit market and it already exists on liquid. The next step is corporate stock.

So... Liquid is a really really really big deal. Its kinda crazy to me that anyone would criticize it.

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you know there is dozens of liquid like chains out there right? all those ordinals and shit, yes, that was liquid style app, but liquid itself is like other chains that "anchor" on bitcoin or some other chain... drivechains also same shit, another chain that refers to bitcoin transactions

the reason why everyone is wrong about doing this nonsense is pretty simple:

- the data is not valuable enough

- there is no consensus on a side chain that can stop the chain from turning into a way of rugging retail, it depends on the worst people (the best people only need error correction, the worst exploit errors)

- blockchains have a very high security cost to maintain a global, single, ordered transaction log

- blockchains are inherently slow and have limited bandwidth because they have to cater to so many users

proof of stake, just to go slightly off on a tangent, is bullshit also, the reality is that chains that use it have a scaling problem with the number of validators (miners) and it's just one way to settle this problem, there is others, that have been little explored, like one idea i have of using a proof of work chain to create a validator queue ahead of time, but that suffers from chain consensus security budget problems as well. IMO, forget the stupid "public" part, replicas are part of a consortium and the consortium will assign someone to auditing the chain data created by consortium members, and when it comes down to it, that's a multinational corporation, more or less, maybe you can subdivide it to also be regional subsidiaries as a second level of hierarchy

Lightning Network is also a type of consensus, where instead of having a set of miners/validators, you have peers who form a relationship with each other called a "channel", and operating this channel involves a game theoretically secure consensus with a very low overhead and several defenses in the game structure to defend against the prisoner's dilemma (whether to try to cheat the other party)

so far i have mentioned several types of consensus:

- the nakamoto consensus used in bitcoin, which has the special property of enabling an unbounded number of competing miners, thus allowing a massive security budget (which users pay for in fees and inflation) - this is theoretically what a "proof of work" side-chain or drivechain could be also, but due to game theory, the tendency is for all mining power to consolidate towards one chain, irrespective of differences in proofs used - see nicehash

- practical byzantine fault tolerance (used in combination with proof of stake because it cannot scale much larger than 99 replicas)

- layer two state channels, which use strong positive incentives and distribute connectivity - the downside is the network is a fog of war and creating paths to move state balance back and forth can sometimes fail due to offline nodes (which will ultimately be solved by creating redundant multipath payments, which are a whole can of worms)

there is bitcoin, there is private, corporate federated byzantine agreements, and there is state channels

everything else is irrelevant, and is trying to blend things together that cannot be mixed, eg "public" proof of stake is really only suited to a collusive, corporate structure, just as was intended for the pBFT protocol, and that's what always happens, eg ethereum, eg cosmos, or has a false marketing trying to sell a system as having a benefit for transaction scaling when there is zero examples of a nakamoto consensus except for bitcoin succeeding, so, drivechains, liquid, *cough* bullshit, they can't succeed, because either hash power or "hypothetical paper value" consolidation leads towards centralization

i hope that helps you understand why i'm so salty about almost everything in "crypto" except for bitcoin and lightning... every other thing is provably stupid

Is that directed to me...? I'm all bitcoin. Anyways, its late, I need to call it a night.

not really, i see too many smart guys thinking liquid or drivechains are good but there is very substantial reasons why they are just as stupid as shitcoins

Drive chains is interesting and I was fascinated by it when... Uhh who was it that suggested them when we were talking the other day? Someone important I think... But its a pretty radical change, so that alone probably dooms it.

Liquid isn't a coin and it doesn't change anything in bitcoin. Idk much about its workings beyond "federated" - whatever consensus it uses, it has to dodge the danger of hashing. There can be only one! Or, there can be only one that's secure.

I guess what I most like about Liquid is that it plays the power game - power like, armies, not lightbulbs. That's also a big reason I like bitcoin. "Winning," as I envision it, involves the people who speak the language of power adopting bitcoin into their lexicon. Liquid can speed this up by bridging tradfi into the future world of energy money. Stocks and bonds aren't going away, and power is largely denominated in stocks and bonds. Getting stocks and bonds on Liquid, traded in bitcoin, is like getting a two eyed fortress in Go/Weiqi and reorganizing the grid around around it. We're playing a power game.

have you read Robert Greene's book "The 48 Laws of Power"?

all "assets" are just casino chips in my opinion and where you have chips you have a House who always wins

you simply don't need equity financing if people can save money, because they can just band together and form a company funded with their savings and run an enterprise

public equity is just gambling, and can be just as damaging to the "winners" who get piled in on and then cashed out

i don't think it's interesting, the incentives are a net negative and the only "winners" are those running these shitcoin casinos

Right. The game is rigged. Stocks are a shitcoin casino, and overall their value must drop relative to bitcoin. We have a superpower because we can see this. But the people who benefit from the rigged game are the power players who we need to win over. Don't misread that - bitcoin is resilient and will win either way, but the path from here to there can be less painful or more painful depending on how we integrate with existing power structures. And yes, there are dangers to being too ready to integrate - we have to be inflexible in nature while flexible in application.

And not just drop relative to bitcoin - sound money means stocks will drop relative to real things.

Land value loses to bitcoin, but still wins over stocks in the long run.

Stocks can be "fixed" by copying bitcoin's inflexible supply. Additional stock issuance should never have been legal in the first place.

stocks are not money, they are a loan to a company

land is only as valuable as its various money-making benefits provide... location is central, because it lowers the key energy cost of transport, and relative to the biggest amount of customers is another aspect of this, there is many, and then there is what you can actually do with the land, such as flat land being good for cities or fields of corn or herds of cattle, whereas slopey land is maybe useful for hunting or tourism

nothing can change the fact that neither of these types of property have moneyness, and it is only fiat that by its constant debasement makes their relative moneyness higher against cash than it otherwise would be

I'd only quibble that a stock is supposed to be ownership of a company. But I know you know that...

private equity is that, you can go to a court with a claim about that

public equity is still casino chips. you go to the SEC, who are not a court

Ah yeah, the preferred stock scam... Isn't it remarkable how people have inserted these little exceptions and rules into everything to benefit themselves at the public's expense?

Well if I was king of the world.... Lots of amazing things would happen... And one would be that stocks can't be issued again after their creation and there would be no separate classes of stock for one company. This shits dishonest...

core devs were hating on Whirlpool.

there are plenty of reasons to opt out of the clusterfuck that is Bitcoin consensus.

that's one.

basically people who want to Build Shit often don't want to spend all there time waiting around and sociel engineering everyone else to get on the same page.

Bitcoin is hard to change by design and arguably already ossified.

people who want features that enhance censorship resistance and different trade-offs are going to do it elsewhere.

Maybe it should be done elsewhere. Its okay to have different tools for different jobs.

Almost zero people use Liquid look at it's mempool. Why would that suddenly change? They aren't doing anything particularly innovative or useful. Monero is massive in comparison. Liquid privacy is also lackluster as it only hides amounts, but not senders and receivers.

"The future of bitcoin is a centralized custodial sidechain some time in the future."

meanwhile polymarket is operating now

The bitcoin ecosystem moves too slow.

So you wanted a casino to fit in bitcoin blocks or what?

what gives you the right to deny or approve someone doing that ?

What makes you think I'm trying to gatekeep?

If you want it, build it. Don't demand other people build it for you, like a child.

many havr tried to build only to have core and ita associates use black ops tactics and informational warfare to defund, distract and undermine projects that could have saved Bitcoin.

it's a war, welcome to hell

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