Genuine question:
If you aren't a criminal, or trying to avoid taxes (same thing) why do you care if your BTC is KYC or not? Why, exactly?
Or is it just a narrative?
Isn't transferring to a self-custody wallet a move away from KYC in the first place? I m an o can send BTC from my CashApp to any address, so unclear on what exactly you think you're gaining with all these conjoins and whirlpools that make it look like criminal activity?
I think it's just a general privacy practice. I'm assuming. It's also a safety measure against potential extortion from govt and non govt organizations. I know that there is a way of obfuscation the coins trail by coinjoining, mixing, and consolidating utxos.
But idk. My btc is kyc. I pay my govts extortion tax and try to never sell unless I borrow against it.
1. CashApp still knows that UTXO is associated with your identity
2. Privacy is a human right
3. Taxation is theft
Who trust cashapp?
Only people who likes to be fooled..
Sure, but once off platform they can't confirm "whom" it went to.
Agreed, taxation is theft. One of the reasons I hold bitcoin, but if I off ramp to USD, I'm probably gonna need ID at some point, regardless of where the bitcoin came from....
Off ramps are sketchy, historically and currently. On ramps, though are needed and CashApp fills that better than mylocalbitcoin did.
I was so triggered by his note haha
Because even if you do nothing wrong but if you pissed the wrong person you they can mark your bitcoin and not allow you to off ramp it if you need..
P2p is always an option, even if at a high conversion rate. Apparently there's a global market for bitcoin and is easily transported across borders, etc... Again, reasons I'm in.
Off ramps are pretty sketchy, when you consider everything. Peer to peer might just be the end game....
And you will fuck somebody else with your makerd bitcoin? π
The Problem with kyc are the big databases with lots of information that ties the bitcoin amount to every individual. It's dangerous to collect and store such sensitive information online.
Agreed, centralized pools of data is an issue, but it's not a bitcoin specific issue.
If you take one step back, they take ten steps forward.
You are not criminal, but you can be controled by your stack.
So hold your ground as firmly as you can
"Privacy is necessary for an open society in the electronic age. Privacy is not secrecy. A private matter is something one doesn't want the whole world to know, but a secret matter is something one doesn't want anybody to know. Privacy is the power to selectively reveal oneself to the world."
Because you might think you are doing nothing wrong, yet others might.
People will do anything to make someone they don't like look bad, so it is better to have them know as little as possible about you.
Its a thing called privacy.
How much btc do you have? Can you share your xpub? No problem right, you're not a criminal. To answer, bc I don't like to be under surveillance, why should Google track me and read my emails? It's bad for a company to monitor their users, they should respect the users. So it's the same reason why I use privacy respecting tools, not bc I am a criminal but because there is no reason to spy on me. Coinjoin helps break the Metadata, if there was a larger bitcoin economy surveillance would be harder.
Itβs a fair question. But i would ask you to at least consider the possibility that your paradigm has been shaped by propagandistic narratives. This doesnβt make you bad, or stupid, it just makes your starting point well across the neutral line, into the Empire paradigm.
Ask yourselfβ¦ is there any evidence that the National Security State having complete access to all the financial transaction data of all 4 amendment protected citizens (which previously would have required a warrant) will be abused for political reasons? what is this βsafetyβ they are claiming, and why when asked to prove it, to they get mad and say, β thatβs classified β
anonymity protection from government has been viewed as a fundamental right for over a century. it is not until this generation that untrustworthy government agencies have been demanding access in violation of Constitutional law.
in short, they up to something. and they have a criminal record.
fair question. I think having a non kyc stack is protection from possible hostility coming from any direction and general privacy practices. We donβt know the future and what may evolve so we need to plan ahead for many outcomes. The question I think about is would I want a stack linked to my identity or not. Iβd prefer to have some non kyc coin just in case things get weird/ not to reveal size of stack/ etc . We do many things in our lives to protect our privacy without having Iβll intent. I have blinds in my living room, lock on my front door even tho I have nothing to hide for example.
If someone know that I have bitcoin or how much I have, they might try to take it from me. Sooo my thinking is that non kyc btc is way more secure for that reason alone. I want and need the right to hold bitcoin that nobody knows I have.
Your name isn't tied to an address, so if you think your address is "doxxed" you could simply send to another address.
Why is this not acceptable? Impossible to know who controls a wallet, unless you're right there...
I think if you bought bitcoin on cash app and sent it to a wallet⦠then that stack can be traced back to you and or your identity.
Thatβs why the need/want for things like coin join
To hold sats that canβt be traced back to you therefore nobody knows you have it or how much and your truly anonymous.???
Since you don't have to KYC a wallet....
From CashApp you can send to any wallet address, ANY. I can send YOU bitcoin from my CashApp. That certainly changes things. I would say, if anything, the difference is "withdraw" and "send" are the same in bitcoin transactions...
π
If you bought from a KYC exchange like Coinbase and sent that to a cold wallet, they still know you have that #bitcoin. People with guns can come and demand you hand that over. Capishe?
There's no difference between "withdrawal" and "send". There is no linked identity.
Capeesh?
If You Sperry bought 1 BTC from Coinbase using your KYC identity and then send that BTC to address say 3GC7HSsYYmEMGoQoQRuhM5q3aCiMCsXeRY. Do you not think Coinbase can track that and every other address that BYC move to? Dude are you really this thick? π
I'm not trying to argue, but your theory makes zero sense, honestly.
You can't tell I bought a car with it. You can't tell if I wrote the keys down wrong or lost them on a boat or destroyed them in a fit of rage and now can't prove I'm Satoshi... You cannot prove I sent it to my cold storage, my cold storage isn't KYC. Is yours? You could attack me, make me give you my keys, search my property, etc, take me to court.
This is the power of bitcoin compared to fiat or gold. Why is it so hard to see? It's literally in the whitepaper.
There's a difference between private and anonymous. Bitcoin isn't private.
It is true that you can hide in the bitcoin network with plausible deniability. I give you that. If you ever cash out, they can still get you but Obviously only if you have a big stack, otherwise they wouldnβt bother. π
That's all I'm saying. KYC only matters on exit, and if you're trying to avoid tax on gains, you're a criminal.
You forget they're coming for all the little tax evaders, the big evaders have have government protection .
If you get out slowly over LN, it is harder to notice.
How do you return to fiat to realize gains, if you're going to?
You can buy or take mortgage on something, paying directly with LN or tether (which can be easily purchased with LN) or first convert to physical cash and pay with that. If it is too hard to do in some country, just move to another one. There are plenty of countries where they don't really care where you got the money, e.g. Thailand or UAE etc. Otherwise you can legalise the money in a country, where it is easy and then officially move it to the country where it is hard.
A lot of it depends on where you live, and anybody with a clue uses multisig security today at a minimum. So there's actually nothing to get or give except an ass whooping lol.
Lastly, just because you had control of the keys at one time doesn't mean you have control of the keys today. They could have sank with a boat. Oh God forbid, been stolen..π§‘π―π€
I know you asked this back in July but I found a pretty good explanation:
It's pretty easy to prove if any of your addresses are connected to your identify. Let's look at some scenarios:
Bob buys bitcoin and withdraws it from his kyc exchange account to his own wallet.
Scenario 1:
Bob then spends the money at a local shop that reuses the same address or the shop's address is associated with the owner's real world identify. On chain analytics then determines with certainty that money has changed hands from Bob to the shop using his associated identity with the account on coinbase that the bitcoin originated from, thereby alerting the IRS that Bob has incurred a taxable event.
Scenario 2:
Bob sent the bitcon to Alice, who then transferred it to her coinbase account and sold it. Onchain analytics is able to determine with certainty that money changed hands between Bob and Alice based on their associated identities with their coinbase accounts.
Scenario 3:
Later Bob uses it to pay for an online order to be delivered to his home address. His name and address associated with the order allows on chain analytics to determine he spent bitcoin and incurred a taxable event. The originating bitcoin address is now known to be owned by him.
Scenario 4:
Bob sent the bitcoin to Jake the dope dealer in exchange for some dope. Because Bob always reuses the same address when he withdraws bitcoin from the exchange, Jake is able to look up the sending address and see Bob's entire bitcoin balance. He and his boys make plans to jump Bob and force him to give them his bitcoin.
Scenario 5:
Bob sends bitcoin to a group of protesters who have gone on strike and no longer have access to traditional fiat since the government has shut that down. Government agents trace the bitcoin back to Bob through his coinbase account and show up at his door to arrest him.
Scenario 6:
Bob is a low time preference bitcoiner who simply holds long term and practices good security by backing up his keys and keeping his bitcoin in cold storage. He has not spent any bitcoin yet. Unfortunately, the KYC exchange he used got hacked and his personal information is leaked to the dark web. His address, phone, ID, and entire transaction history on the exchange is sold to a black hat hacker, who sees he owns a lot of bitcoin. The hacker makes plans to invade Bob's home with 3 other masked men. They're prepared to torture or kidnap Bob for his bitcoin.
So somebody can know where it goes if your real world identify is associated at any time with any of the addresses you use. You're open to government overreach or even malicious actors.
Here's a better scenario:
Bob logged into Bisq which is an open source peer-to-peer network for trading bitcoin privately where every bisq node is a Tor hidden service. He buys bitcoin anonymously and sends it to his private wallet where it is then sent through a coinjoin, thereby completely obscuring the origins of the bitcoin.
Now the first question isn't who did he send to? It's who sent what to who?
Bob also uses coin control in which his bitcoin stack is separated into UTXOs that are labeled so he knows where they came from and what they're used for, making it even more difficult to understand how much bitcoin he holds or who even who is holding it.
Bob sends some bitcoin to Alice who then turns around and sells it on an exchange. On chain analytics knows that Alice sold bitcoin but it cannot determine where it came from.
Bob spends his non-KYC bitcoin at a local shop. On chain analytics knows the shop received it but is unable to identify who sent it.
Bob sends bitcoin to protestors on strike. Government has no idea who gave it to them.
Coinbase got hacked leaking personal information of thousands of users. It doesn't affect Bob because he gets his bitcoin P2P.
Bob is chilling with his non-KYC bitcoin. No one can bother him or intrude on his privacy. know you asked this back in July but I found a pretty good explanation:
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it's all so tiresome, really.
the bitcoin isn't KYC, Coinbase doesn't know beyond a shadow of a doubt Bob withdrew the bitcoin to his own address or if he sent it to someone.
Bob doesn't have any bitcoin, he was tortured and didn't produce keys holding the bitcoin.
Everyone around him stomped their feet, yelled and screamed and said he had bitcoin and owes taxes now.
Bob, you bought bitcoin, we know you did, where is it?
It's all swirling around this dynamic that Bob gives a fuck. This is exactly why Bob likes bitcoin, it's fuck you money.
Or...
Bob sold some bitcoin on bisq to Alice, 5 months later the fiat is clawed back by visa, because the visa wasn't hers, now Bob is out the fiat and the bitcoin the government thinks he has. Alice spends the bitcoin online on steroids. The steroids marketplace is a fake front that's actually feds and chainanalysis now blames Bob for buying steroids.
These scenarios are exhausting AF and reads like an ad for bisq, which might be a great service, but it's got it's share of short comings. Charge-backs are a thing.
Why the hell would Bob sell his btc for dirty fiat? Bob has left the fiat system.
Privacy is about what a person consents to reveal. Also, KYC is the illicit activity, so coinjoins are a giant middle finger to the practice and can stave off hostile actors, the state or otherwise. KYC'd coins in cold storage are still seizure-resistant anyway
