You've had a couple of hundred years to fix society with your guns.

I think we can agree, it's not going well.

You've answered a point not made. Perhaps step back a little, and think?

That's exactly what I'm saying.

The trouble is it's quite hard to build a safe and fair society, when a section of the potential members of it insist on holding the others at gunpoint, and saying the slaughter of their children in school is the price society should pay for their beliefs.

I mean what is important enough for these idiots to actually have a social dialogue around it? It's totally unreasonable.

When more people have guns, more people with guns die.

>If nobody gets exactly what they want, then the government does not actually represent the people.

I am very sorry that you have so little understanding about human civilization, and what the success of our species is built on. I don't know who has done it to you, but we as a society need to hunt them down and stop them.

Sometimes there's just not enough sentience to work with. It needs intervention.

Isn't educating yourself, organizing communities, collaborating to solve problems and provide mutual support, and taking the lessons learned to influence and shape your wider society, also defending your country.

Or were you hoping for something much easier? Like shouting about how unfair the world is, and pointing a gun.

Of course it's easier, but a waste of time to achieve what you say that you want. Because individual action, however big the dog, will never achieve anything lasting.

It's not the gun that shaped America. It's communities coming together to provide safely from the tyranny of armed criminals and bullies, and building a Democratic society on the back of those communities.

When you've been in computing long enough, you've seen the cycle between centralised (mainframe, server, datacentre) to decentralized ( time sliced, multiuser, personal computer), and back and forth, ad nauseum.

I doubt that the cycle will reach end of line before I do.

This is a misunderstanding of socialisation. Nobody gets exactly what they want. But through Democratic discussion a society can set it's values, and with tolerance allow people freedom within that.

The reason that you make that compromise is to be better, stronger, offer more opportunity, and safety, than fighting for that alone. Which you just don't have the power to achieve on your own. Against a legion of other views wanting to take what's yours.

The problem is that we have been persuaded to not value society, and put the levers in the hands of those who serve other interests.

Our bad.

The solution is to gather together, agree shared values, and democratically seize control of our destiny.

No individual, however well armed, can do that. If there are enough of us we just need the pen, and the ballot box.

If you decentralize everything, you are too busy growing your food, and defending it, to do anything else.

The answer is to do socialization better, not usher in a new dark age.

No. I'm telling you that in a democracy, you the people are the government. The government is the institution of your social administration.

If it isn't you need to do your job better, and take your social responsibility more seriously.

One person with a gun can never hold out against an organised enemy.

That's why it's important to have the most organised, strongest, most coherent society. Working together with tolerance and fairness.

Governments are the representative of the people, elected by the people, directed by the people, and held account by the people.

If there's a problem with the government, it's because the people aren't doing a good enough job.

You are being tyrannized even with your gun. The answer is to do social democracy better. Not your gun.

Socially funded and democratically directed armed forces. Not armed individuals.

Armed individuals who think they are the bulwarks of society, are generally more of a danger to it.

.... and you need a strong coherent society for that. To provide the infrastructure and services to allow individuals to flourish. Or you will have to spend all day growing your own turnips and fending off those who would steal, rather than grow.

Then you are not doing it right. You need to elect governments that work in societies best interests, and hold them democratically accountable.

You can't do that acting as a bunch of individuals, without tolerance and negotiating shared values.

There's a world of difference between your society - the state that you democratically form, and whose values you defend, and someone elses state.

How is enabling gunmen from our society to shoot our children, protecting us all from the actions of an external state?

It seems to me that is a conflation of different, and unrelated, issues in order to justifying an action that lacks a logical defence.

Criminality is criminality. A strong united society can stand better against it, than one riven by division and fear, and fighting amongst itself.

Criminality, is something that we as a society should police, to enforce the social values that we have democratically mandated. Whether that's with guns, knives, or spreadsheets. That's not in doubt if you believe in law and order.

The question is, what values is it appropriate for society to mandate? Should the preferences of a small minority, take precedence over a wider constituencies right to live in freedom from fear?

The notion that 'what I believe' allows the individual to mandate behavior that threatens a wider society is surely intolerant, and thus dangerous.... on many levels?

It's interesting that you suggest that not thinking that anyone should have easy access to firearms, to shoot whoever they feel like, is an unusual view.

I assume that you think that everyone should also have free access to drugs, birth control, abortion, the right to express themselves politically, and define their own gender and sexuality as well?

It's the same value set, yes? The rights of the individual taking precedence over social considerations?

And to you. I wish peace and happiness to us all. We just have to work together with tolerance and understanding, or it's not happening.

I'm a bit autistic and tend to say things how I see them. Absolutely no personal disparagement intended.