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cheesypleb
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Replying to Avatar Calletana

This is a joke right? WiFi exists and can be measured. Mystically woo-woo can't because it doesn't.

Gaslighting nonsense. The biggest threat to decentralisation is making it harder to run nodes. That's exactly what facilitating spam does. Bitcoin has all the utility it needs to become the dominant global store of value. Once we get there then layered payment solutions will be needed and yes that may involve centralised solutions. Satoshi foresaw the development of 'bitcoin banks' as inevitable. Bitcoin is the base layer. The base layer should be kept as simple, stable and risk free as possible.

Replying to Avatar Shortfiat

55% of miners have now adopted Core v30.

The doors are now open to send transactions to the blockchain that include any form of image or video to miner.

The miners will include it in the blockchain and it will be there forever.

From that point onwards people that run nodes will be at risk of prosecution for hosting and distributing illegal content.

Anyone that doesn't like bitcoin will do this. That could include, shitcoin projects, intelligence agencies, Peter Todd.

It is really not a question of 'if' this will happen, more a question of 'when' will this happen?

Sooner or later, the government of one of the 195 countries in the world, that doesn't like having a competing currency that they can't control, will prosecute someone for running bitcoin a node that contains easily accessible illegal content.

The potential for prosecution with 'plain text' op_return data is on a different level to any ordinals that were stored in the witness data before. Simple tools that exist on the computer of anyone running a node can be used to access and view the material.

People will get scared away from Bitcoin nodes and we will lose decentralisation.

The media backlash against bitcoin will be more severe. Users of Bitcoin will be branded criminals and publicly shamed.

Here is a list of mining pools that have upgraded to v30 of core:

Foundry USA 28% Upgraded (Oct 15) Default 100KB

F2Pool 15% Upgraded (Oct 18) Default 100KB

Binance Pool11% Upgraded (Oct 14) Default 100KB

AntPool 22% Testing (still on v29 primarily)N/A (not fully on v30) Delayed due to "policy review"; if they upgrade soon (~Nov 1), expect default unless community pressure mounts.

ViaBTC 12% Partial (50% on v30) Default 100KB on v30 nodesHybrid setup for "risk hedge"; no indication of custom limits on v30 portion.

Luxor~3%On v29/KnotsN/AConservative; using Knots' ~80-byte default, but not on v30.

Braiins~2%On v29N/AHolding out; focuses on firmware over Core upgrades.

If you know anyone at any of the pools that have upgraded please tell them to reverse the upgrade.

There is still time to change things before an illegal block gets mined.

Is it normal for miners to upgrade to new versions so quickly?

Replying to Avatar calle

This is a long post that hopefully bridges some gaps between technical people (devs) and non-technical users and how they look at spam prevention in Bitcoin. I hope that it clarifies why I think that there is such a huge misunderstanding between both camps.

I'll preface this post with first disqualifying any malicious attempts to misrepresent the motives of either camp. Everybody wants to improve Bitcoin as money. Money is Bitcoin's use case. It's not a data storage system. If you think otherwise, there are countless shitcoins to play with.

Alright, let's get into it.

I have worked on anonymous systems for over a decade. I have read tons of research on spam detection, rate-limiting, and I've implemented spam prevention techniques in the real world.

I am very confident to say that there is not a single known method to prevent spam in decentralized anonymous open networks other than proof of work.

This is what Satoshi realized when he designed Bitcoin and it's why only transaction fees can reliably fight spam without sacrificing any of Bitcoin's properties.

Let me explain.

Spam prevention is a cat and mouse game. As a system's architect, your goal is to make the life of a spammer harder (increase the friction). This is why, on the web, you see captchas, sign-ups, or anything that can artificially slow you down. Slowing down is key. This is why Satoshi turned to proof of work.

Let's contrast this to other methods for spam prevention. This is not an exhaustive list but it illustrates the design space of this problem, other methods are often derivatives of these:

CAPTCHAS are a centralized form of proof of work for humans: Google's servers give you a hard-to-solve task (select all bicycles) that will slow you down so that you can't bombard a website with millions of requests. It requires centralization: you need to prove Google that you're human so that you can use another website. If you could host your own CAPTCHA service, why would anyone believe you're not cheating?

LOGINS with email and passwords are most popular way to slow down users. Before you can sign up, you need to get an email address, and to get an email address, you often need a phone number today. The purpose of this is, again, to slow you down (and to track you to be honest). It only works well when emails are hard to get, i.e. in a centralized web where Google controls how hard it is to get an email account. If you could easily use your own email server, why would anyone believe you're not a bot?

The next one is the most relevant to Bitcoin:

AD BLOCK FILTERS are another form of spam prevention but this time the roles are reversed: you as a user fight against the spam from websites and advertising companies trying to invade your brain. Ad blocking works only under certain conditions: First you need to be able to "spell out" what the spam looks like, i.e. what the filter should filter out. Second, you need to update your filters every time someone circumvents them. Have you ever installed a youtube ad blocker and then noticed that it stops working after a few weeks? That's because you're playing cat-and-mouse with youtube. You block, they circumvent, you update your filters, repeat.

The fact that you need to update your filters is critical and that's where it ties back to Bitcoin: Suppose you have a mempool filter for transactions with a locktime of 21 because some stupid NFT project uses that. You maybe slow them down for a few weeks, but then they notice it and change their locktime to 22. You're back at zero, the spam filter doesn't work anymore. What do you do?

You update your filter! But where do you get your new filter from? You need a governing body, or some centralized entity that keeps updating these filters and you need to download their new rules every single day. That's what ad blockers in your web browser do. They trust a centralized authority to know what's best for you, and blindly accept their new filters. Every single day.

I hope you see the issue here. Nobody should even consider this idea of constantly updating filter rules in Bitcoin. This would give the filter providers a concerning level of power and trust. It would turn Bitcoin into a centrally planned system, the opposite of what makes Bitcoin special.

This is why filters do not work for decentralized anonymous systems. They require a central authority. Until now, these rules were determined by Bitcoin Core, but they have realized that these rules do not work anymore. Transactions bypass the filters easily and at some point, carrying them around became a burden to the node runners themselves. Imagine you're using an outdated ad blocker but instead of filtering out ads, it now also filters out legitimate content you might be interested in. That's what mempool filters do, and that's why Bitcoin Core is slowly relaxing these filters. This has been discussed for over two years, it's not a sudden decision.

The goal of this change is not to help transactions to slip through more easily. The goal is to improve your node's prediction of what is going to be in the next block. Most people misrepresent this part. They say "it's to turn Bitcoin into a shitcoin" but that is just a false statement at best, or a manipulation tactic at worst.

Let's tie it back to proof of work and why fees are the actual filter that keeps Bitcoin secure and prevents spam reasonably well: Satoshi realized that there is no technique that could slow down block production and prevent denial of service attacks in a decentralized system other than proof of work. Fees prevent you from filling blocks with an infinite number of transactions. All the other options would introduce some form of trust or open the door for censorship – nothing works other than proof of work.

He was smart enough to design a system where the proof of work that goes into block production is "minted" into the monetary unit of the system itself: You spend energy, you get sats (mining). This slows down block production. How do you slow down transactions within those blocks? You spend the sats themselves, original earned form block production, as fees for the transactions within the block!

This idea is truly genius and it's the only reason why Bitcoin can exist. All other attempts of creating decentralized money have failed to solve this step. Think about it: without knowing who you are, whether you're one person pretending to be a thousand, or a thousand people pretending to be one. Bitcoin defends itself (and anyone who runs nodes in the Bitcoin system) from spam by making you pay for your activity.

People sometimes counter this by saying: the economic demand for decentralized data storage is higher than the monetary use case. First of all, I think that's just wrong. There are way cheaper ways to store data (there are shitcoins for this), and the value of having decentralized neutral internet money is beyond comparison.

However, there's a much deeper concern here. If you truly believe this, I ask you: what is Bitcoin worth to you? If you think Bitcoin can't succeed as money (i.e. be competitive), why do you even care? If you're not willing to pay fees for the use case that we all believe Bitcoin is designed for (money), and you believe that no one is willing to pay for it, how can it even persist into the future?

You can't have it all. If Bitcoin is money (which I believe it is), then we need to pay the price to keep it alive. There is no free lunch.

Either we centralize, or we pay the price of decentralization. I know where I stand.

Peace.

I would describe myself as a technical user and I understand the technical arguments core is attempting to make but I think you are still wrong here.

Yes perfect spam filters don't exist, but saying that decentralised spam filters can never work is not true otherwise email would be unusable. Yes I know email is more centralised now than originally intended so maybe not the perfect example but I can still run an email server and filter 90%+ of spam myself.

What's important is making bitcoin hostile to spam, yes it's a cat and mouse, wack-a-mole game that will never be 'won', but total victory is not needed.

The alternative, to accommodate spammers by giving them a 'nice' way to spam only encourages them, both to spam more and to demand more and more 'accommodations' via essentially blackmail - give us what we want or we harm the chain with more UTXOs etc. Making bitcoin hostile to spammers has worked pretty well for years (apart from the inscriptions fiasco caused by core not fixing a bug - again an example of what happens if you accommodate spammers). There is a reason most scams/spam has occured on other chains rather than bitcoin up till now.

Replying to Avatar Jameson Lopp

I think that meme applies to the core team right now tbh.

Yes. At least it will slow the proportion of junk round the network. Even better though as the % of knots nodes rise and hopefully become the majority it's a powerful signal to core that they are on the wrong side of this debate. If they refuse to change, they risk becoming the minority bitcoin implementation and thus increasingly irrelevant.

The thing I don't understand is that ultimately all these scaling solutions apart from lightening , require trust in at least one third party. Not just for the bridge but in the nodes as well (maybe I'm missing something but what forces users to respect the nullifiers?). If you have to complete trust at least one third party then why use a blockchain at all?

This is standard in my experience. People are far too trusting of AI answers. The worst thing is that it will give made up answers with complete confidence where a human would just admit they don't know. Yet another indicator that there is no real intelligences here just glorified auto-complete.

In practice they do. Yes spammers can pay more or go to more effort to go direct to rouge miners but that does not mean we should abandon all attempts to limit spam.

Your second paragraph reveals the problem with your thinking. It is the nodes that are in charge, miners should respect node runners preferences not the other way around. Nodes Mempool filtering (which they have always done) is a signal of our preferences to the miners. Thanks to miner pool centralisation, individual rouge miners are able to ignore the nodes wishes and put unwanted junk in the blocks. The fact that mining has become this centralised gives us bigger problems anyway but that's another issue.

If we accept that nodes no longer have a say in the content of the Mempool then bitcoin is dead and we might as well let the big two mining pools run everything. Then we have become ethereum or any other shitcoin.

I would still rather trust this one person who appears to understand what bitcoin is for and what makes it unique, than a group who appears to have been compromised, either ideologically or financially, to introduce a change that is clearly against the long term interests of bitcoin.

You need one before the other. No one will use it as cash until it is accepted as a store of value by most people we are not there yet.

Replying to Avatar L0la L33tz

David Bailey just posted the draft for an executive order for the Bitcoin Strategic Reserve under Trump – and it's an absolute nightmare for anyone using bitcoin as money.

First, the draft order defines Bitcoin as "a finite store-of-value asset, akin to digital gold."

As someone who has lived on Bitcoin for a fairly long time, I can say that Bitcoin is not merely a "store-of-value asset", but a money for payment and day to day purchases.

Defining Bitcoin as a "store-of-value asset" reinforces the ossification narrative (who needs to move a stonk several times in a day?) which may put developers at risk when prioritizing changes to btc to make it more usable as money (think scaling for example).

With this definition, a softfork to activate covenants may become an issue of US national security that goes against the US' definition of its primary goals - directly putting developers in the firing line of the United States Government.

The draft states that federal agencies, such as the US Marshall's Service, may not auction seized Bitcoin off, but must contribute them to the strategic reserve.

This not only reduces the Bitcoin in circulation available to the public, but additionally sets the incentive for the US to increase its seizing efforts – think increased AML/KYC.

While I'm no fan of the strategic reserve in general, this draft is an even bigger disappointment than Sen. Lummis' proposed Bitcoin Act.

To compare this to how El Salvador has implemented Bitcoin, which I admit I initially wasn't a fan of either, ES directly gives citizens rights to use Bitcoin as money - which is a huge upside to benefit the people, and not just the national security state.

No offense, but letting a couple of children that just graduated college and a guy who runs a magazine draft US policy is a scene straight out of idiocracy.

Next time, maybe try speaking to the people actually building and using bitcoin, not just to the boomers and national security goons that sit on the money like a fat kid at the cake buffet.

Incredibly unprofessional conduct here by BPI, a huge risk to anyone using Bitcoin for anything other than an investment, and a testament to the people involved being more interested in furthering their own importance than to empower people with a money without state.

Sincerely hope that this EO is drastically challenged on all levels and hopefully somehow deemed unconstitutional to protect btc and the people developing it.

I want BTC to be used as currency as much as anyone but I think bitcoiners need to chill and accept that it won't be widely used in the west as such whilst it is still rapidly monetising against the dollar. Becoming the dominant store of value asset is a necessary first step before the majority will even consider using it as currency.

Replying to Avatar Peter Todd

“I see a lot of confusion about Google's Monday press release about quantum supremacy, so let me try to clarify a few things.

They say they did a computation on a ca 100 qubit chip much faster than a conventional (super)computer could do. The particular calculation in question is to produce a random distribution. The result of this calculation has no practical use.

They use this particular problem because it has been formally proven (with some technical caveats) that the calculation is difficult to do on a conventional computer (because it uses a lot of entanglement). That also allows them to say things like "this would have taken a septillion years on a conventional computer" etc.

It's exactly the same calculation that they did in 2019 on a ca 50 qubit chip. In case you didn't follow that, Google's 2019 quantum supremacy claim was questioned by IBM pretty much as soon as the claim was made and a few years later a group said they did it on a conventional computer in a similar time.

So while the announcement is super impressive from a scientific pov and all, the consequences for everyday life are zero. Estimates say that we will need about 1 million qubits for practically useful applications and we're still about 1 million qubits away from that.

Also, it's been a recurring story that we have seen numerous times in the past years, that claims of quantum "utility" or quantum "advantage" or quantum "supremacy" or whatever you want to call it later evaporate because some other group finds a clever way to do it on a conventional computer after all.”

https://x.com/skdh/status/1866352680899104960

Quantum computing has always been and i'm pretty confident will always be vapourware. I'm not even convinced that what they claim to be able to do is even theoretically possible.