Yes, this is why we built on an open protocol - we want interoperability, transparency, competition

Pkarr does not require the DHT to change topology, neither do bittorrent peers need to change the topology of anything.

I think you are thinking about Pkarr as if it is a holepunching/NAT traversal thing. It is NOT, but neither is Mainline.

Mainline is literally a sharded routing table, just like DNS, but instead of a hierarchy, a flat distribution of routing servers (all of which have port forwarding no need for NAT) .

so now the question is, could one million small nodes cope with the 8 billion people updating their homeserver/hosting provider once a year each? because that is the only Publishing we need.

As for Reads, well just like DNS, we have to cache the shit of it, but that is ok, we only need the DHT to work well enough and caches be refreshed frequently enough just so your followers to detect your super rare event of change your hosting SERVER

Seriously, if the DHT can't scale for this, then nothing can and the alternative is just ICANN, if you think a 100 Nostr relays can scale better than a million nodes AND stay open and censorship resistant, I need you to explain that to me and walk me through what is the innovation in relays that we didn't have before ... because DHTs literally exists because Bittorrent trackers (exactly same as nostr relays) couldn't both scale AND stay permissionless.

I hope that makes sense.

Mainline isn't that popular. It's mainly used by BitTorrent and has few updates. Meaning it gets updated each time a new torrent gets posted. That's not very often. What you want to do is update it anytime anyone's IP address changes. That's very often.

Each new key value pair updates the topology of the dht. That's the computationally and bandwidth intensive operation.

The practice is small. You can't extrapolate into the future from the current sample.

It's not about about the size of the group chat. It's about the size of the pool of people that potentially join the group chat. That's the scaling problem.

IPFS and Mainline are the same tech. Mainline is just used less (yes BitTorrent is a niche application) and updates much less frequently.

3000 is bugger all, the internet has ~8bn people in it.

We can't see it scale because bugger all people use Keet.

Ipfs got clogged real quick.

You can use it today and it works quite well actually.

There’s no point in arguing theory when we can see it in practice.

Pubky (more like twitter whereas Keet is just a messenger) also uses a DHT

Yes another Kademlia. It doesn't work for the same reasons IPFS doesn't work.

SimpleX = phones + servers

Keet = phones

No matter how super advanced your server cryptography is, if someone gets your phone, they have your data.

So skip the servers and just use P2P. Smaller attack surface, easier to harden.

In Keet how do phones find one another? The Keet website seems low on detail.

Better depends on who’s asking. They have you use an nsecbunker like service on your PDS and then it is accessible via login & oauth and all the signing happens on your PDS server. If you want, you can migrate your keys to another PDS server. Users are not encouraged to backup their keys and there’s no way to do it without coding up something yourself.

The vast majority of bluesky users don’t know they have keys to them it’s just username and password like they know.

nothing is stopping that. I think we have encrypted group nip PR out there

I think the advantage this time around is information access.

That and repetition. Prominent bitcoiners & cypherpunks are in my view more accessible today than privacy oriented email advocates. They put their money where their mouth is. There was no money in email. Bitcoin is a money protocol.

So if prominent bitcoiners keep preaching directly to people, and distrust in legacy media keeps building, the outcome might differ. More people may be looking in running their own nodes.

I never ran my email server but probably would’ve if I didn’t discover the convenient route first. However, I do run my own node.

I wonder if it wouldn't have been better if I had been chosen.

That would never happen in the first place, but just being able to experiment with the protocol and some test clients and environments like Bluesky did. That could probably make us arrive at clear description of what we now call "outbox model", for example, before launching Nostr.

And if I was able to work together with some smart leftists on the issue, maybe we could have figured a nice way to make relays more proeminent in the protocol as home for communities and "safe" spaces, as natural curators of content and discovery layers for what later would be handled by the outbox model of following people.

And if it had all worked well then maybe we would have built a nice protocol that would still be decentralized and censorship-resistant but would at the same time appeal to leftists and libertarians and everything in between and we would get a ton of media boost and maybe be ready for mass adoption and not face any criticisms from any side except from Jeffrey Epstein friends and Nostr would be named Bluesky and be bigger than all the centralized platforms combined today.

But of course this wouldn't happen in this way at all. What would happen instead?