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Ronin
8aef75ca27af00a6f70c14865ae52860ccdc368f46499c7cf6b2352b09a709f5
Bitcoiner. Web developer.

i agree with the views of Bitcoin Mechanic and with the comment of John Carvalho in the google groups discussion where he basically says that Core should not govern node Policy. People running nodes should be able to choose the node policy.

Not that i know of. but if or when there is i think it would be easier to update the implementation you already have than to change the implementation you are using in that moment. Apart from that i guess the point now is people are losing trust/unhappy with the decisions that Core is taking and are signaling that by choosing an implementation that aligns more with their views. I think its good. Not updating is another option sure, but if new feats/updates that you want comes along you will have to deal with it at that point.

So citria wants to have some sort of permissionless bridge from base layer to them, so they need op_return limits out to do it, oh but if Core doesn't do it its worse, because they will send the txs directly to miners out of band that have a deal with them. This makes its seem that for citrea its all the same, and for the network is worse,well if they need some deals with some miners that doesn't seem that trustless anymore does it? Seems to me that not merging this change is worse for citrea that has money invested and not a solid product than for the network.

I am a dev and devs are often "stupid" because we think in absolutes and we either have a perfect solution for a problem or its useless. Bitcoin is more probabilistic and it is also social/political.

The fact that bitcoin has fees does not stop/prevent spam, spam as in undesirable data, fees prevent Denial Of Service attacks, if a bad actor wants to flood the chain, fees will rise and eventually stop that attack, but if you just send some crap randomly just because you think Bitcoin is a nice DB for jpegs fees wont do shit, you need other methods, and yes they are never fully effective.

Replying to Avatar kidwarp

From Seth for privacy

"of the OP_RETURN drama just reinforces for me how few people actually understand how Bitcoin works at a fundamental level.

Anyone telling you that you can filter out arbitrary data at the mempool policy level are either malicious or misinformed, it simply is not feasible.

Soooo many people have just blindly believed their favorite influencer or podcaster and haven't taken the time to understand that Bitcoin is a simple decentralized database literally designed for data storage.

Should we optimize for financial transactions however possible? Sure!

Can we prevent arbitrary data storage? Absolutely not!

Are there good reasons to use Bitcoin for arbitrary data storage? Absolutely!

Many new L2s and scaling solutions would require storing proofs on-chain, something that is simple data storage. They can do this no matter what you run on your node as the only entity who matters for block inclusion are miners, and miners have a clear incentive to make more money. That incentive is at the core of Bitcoin's game theory, and cannot change or everything falls apart.

If you go nuts with mempool filters and everyone runs sketchy software to white knight as "Defenders of BitcoinTM", guess what happens -- everyone just sends transactions straight to miners for an additional fee, small miners can no longer be competitive, and miner centralization gets drastically worse. Or they find unstoppable ways to simply make their transactions look standard using steganography (hiding data in tweaked pubkeys, unspendable outputs, etc.) so that they don't have to bother with direct miner submission.

Not only would that be literally impossible to filter, it would also be drastically worse for scaling than the current state of things.

Now the last major effect of this insanity is that it will absolutely lead to faster burnout of the few devs willing to work full time on Bitcoin, and disincentivize future devs from working on Bitcoin as they'll know they have to wade through the morass of public opinion just to get simple changes in a PR. Guess what happens when less devs want to work on Bitcoin? It stagnates, becomes more and more vulnerable to attacks at a software level, and becomes less useful as money because not enough people are maintaining or building the software.

So what can you do about "spam"?

Bitcoin has a novel spam prevention mechanism -- fees. Don't want people spamming the chain with "useless" jpegs and zk proofs? Simply spend more sats on using Bitcoin day-to-day, take self-custody, participate in the circular economy. The current state of almost no Bitcoiners using Bitcoin regularly is a core reason why on-chain "spam" is happening more than ever the past couple of years, as more and more usage of Bitcoin has shifted to custodians like Strike, Wallet of Satoshi, Liquid, etc.

The more of us that actually use Bitcoin the more we disincentivize using Bitcoin for data storage as the fees necessary will prevent it. Simple and effective."

Bitcoin Mechanic already refuted all those arguments.

you can choose not to, or use a burner if you want, its your choice and there is a clear warning. Nostr browser extension signers also store it in browser local storage.

My point is, did anyone asked for this? is this necessary for improving bitcoin or txs?no, its just to have a better way to store random data, so why is Core, that should be very conservative pushing this. The argument of they can already do it in other ways is not a valid argument.

but if core does some security update or other kind of core improvement, you either stay frozen in that version or you have to update and take it all because its not a plugin based. we need a plugin kind of node implementation.

No power in Portugal. rekt.

plausible deniability my bank transfer to bank x can be for anything, and my bank wont probably "talk" to bank X, its hard for them to coordinate like that and there is privacy rules they must follow, so they probably do not know the account owner , the data is partitioned between the two entities. They have little basis to block a regular bank transfer, but they can easily block a transfer to binance or coinbase.