You're literally admitting it is custodial.
Who cares who created it? It's a popular lightning wallet and it is custodial. That was my point.
https://phoenix.acinq.co/faq#how-private-are-my-payments-on-phoenix
Utreexo looks cool though
Chivo is a custodial lightning wallet (custodial bitcoin too). It literally says it is on the description.
Do people "use lightning" on Strike and Bitcoin Beach? Then yes, it is custodial lightning. You are getting semantic
Muun is not a true lightning wallet. But sure throw it in for fun.
Phoenix splicing upgrade is great improvement, but still not private, and still not trustless. You're not running your own node.
Yes, running your own node applies to on chain too, but the consequences for privacy are much less severe for Monero vs Lightning. The most a public Monero node could know is your IP. Not amounts, sender, or reciever. Not to mention the security implications for not having an active Lightning node that Monero doesn't have once txns are already confirmed.
By the way it has become worse. Wallet of Satoshi is now at 500K. Here are the new numbers:
Custodial (no privacy)
Chivo ~1Million
Wallet of Satoshi ~500K
Bitcoin Beach Wallet ~100K
Non custodial (without node, not trustless, no privacy)
Phoenix ~50K
Breez ~10K
Non custodial (with node, potential privacy)
Zeus ~5K
Ok...but it is most likely used in custodial way by vast majority of users if that list is any indication. But to steelman go ahead and pretend Alby is 100% used self-custodially. What about the other 1.6 million downloads? They don't matter? lmao
Who cares who it is from? The information is true. You can confirm it yourself.
No one uses LN self-custodially. Even fewer use it privately.
IRS also has a $1.25 million to crack Monero. Big whoop. I find it more interesting that no one uses LN on the DNMs where privacy is paramount.
Yes, confirmed, everything is being recorded on the Monero Blockchain so is potentially vulnerable to future threats.
Lightning has no blockchain, you must actively gather data. Ephemerality is great. And as long as no one is actively collecting that data (big caveat!) it will be safe from future threats. But it has weaker privacy garuntees and is more vulnerable *right now* than Monero.
(Who knows when Moneros past data will be broken? I could easily be dead by the time that happens. Monero is also not static, it continually improves privacy i.e. Seraphis full membership proofs)
Agree? Anything to change, add, remove?
How did you jump to the conclusion that vast majority of Monero users are on exchanges? Monero is delisted from almost every CEX. It's Bitcoin that is listed on every CEX.
Exchanges are not the only people that can discriminate based on unique history either. You seem to be the only one tunnel visioned on exchanges.
Extremely triggered reporting for duty
It's a weak point, who cares, I already said you can have the 100k Blue Wallet downloads even though we both know 90% of them aren't running their own nodes. It's like you are concerned with a mouse on the floor and ignoring the custodial elephant in the room.
If you're admitting the vast majority of people are using custodial LN wallets, then the vast majority of the LN network isn't private. ...Yes, I am extremely triggered 😂
When did I say anything about exchanges? It's not just about exchanges. Click the fungibility graveyard link and read thru it unless you are scared of the truth. Spooooooky!
Yes, on the protocol 1 btc = 1 btc.
But in the practice, in the real world, where people can discriminate based on visible unique histories 1 btc =/= 1 btc. We live in the real world not on the protocol:
https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/fungibility-graveyard/#the-fungibility-graveyard
How many of those Blue Wallet users do you think run their own node based off that list? Lol. But okay whatever you can have the 100k Blue Wallet downloads. What about the other 1.6 million custodial downloads?
One sat in the network is still worth one sat therefore FUNGIBLE.
*Right now* EVERYONE collects all information on the blockchain for a disaster to happen.
You can connect your own node to BlueWallet. LOL?
I like BTC times too. Here's one link for you:
https://www.btctimes.com/news/the-irs-is-paying-developers-to-crack-privacy-of-lightning-network
Yes, on the protocol 1 btc = 1 btc.
But in the practice, in the real world, where people can discriminate based on visible unique histories 1 btc =/= 1 btc. We live in the real world not on the protocol:
https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/fungibility-graveyard/#the-fungibility-graveyard
How many of those Blue Wallet users do you think run their own node based off that list? Lol. But okay whatever you can have the 100k Blue Wallet downloads. What about the other 1.6 million custodial downloads?
Only holds true to passive adversaries and only as long as they remain passive. Any adversary that cares WILL actively collect and store LN data. They already do this (chain analysis and governments). So little real world difference.
Blue Wallet WAS custodial lightning. They don't offer it anymore as of April.
But sure focus on the 100k downloads and ignore the other 1.6 million custodial downloads. lol. Virtually zero people use Lightning privately. Congratulations if you do, honestly. You walk the walk.
"ASICs have their own weaknesses. CPUs have their own weaknesses." - correct. Not many monero shills will say that. As well as not many will agree how easily it can be 51% attacked just by using the hardware, the governments already own.
"Your Coinbase example is exactly why Monero is fungible and Bitcoin isn't. You to allow it all, or allow none of it. In either case it is fungible with any other Monero coin. While Bitcoin is split into tainted and clean coins." - My Coinbase example was about to show that blocking a transaction at a fiat gate doesn't mean that #Bitcoin can be blocked. Read the whole thread if you want to jump in.
Also, learn what fungible means: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fungible
One BTC is always one BTC, no matter what some fiat gate thinks. The sats on the network (outside fiat) are still worth the same.
"Your argument about teh conequences of writing to the chain forever applies tenfold to Bitcoin." - applies the SAME to every blockchain out there.
"It is completely exposed." - It's not. Again, learn how #LN & #Liquid works.
"*Right now*, not in some hypothetical future™" - this isn't a hypothetical future, monero DOES write every single transaction on the blockchain RIGHT NOW. We just don't know WHEN it'll become readable.
"If quantum computers become a thing, that vulnerability is not unique to Monero." - have I applied it would?
"You can actively monitor and probe most Lightning Network activity and save all that data to be used later to be quantum cracked as well. Not very different." - there is a MASSIVE DIFFERENCE. In LN "you can". In Monero, "everyone does" hold all the information already.
"While what you're saying about staying private on LN is true in theory, most LN users don't transact that way (ignorance? UX hurdles?). They are not concerned with privacy (Phoenix wallet). Additionally even more aren't concerned with self-custody (~90% WoS, Chivo, Bitcoin Beach)." - correct. Privacy on LN is achievable to the same level as in monero. That was MY POINT, exchanging to a shirtcoin is pointless if I can use #Bitcoin - the absolute digital scarcity. What's wrong with Phoenix Wallet? Have I missed something?
"Monero will soon dethrone Bitcoin" - lol, every shirtcoiner says exactly the same.
"In economics, fungibility is the property of a good or a commodity whose individual units are essentially interchangeable, and each of whose parts are indistinguishable from any other part."
Bitcoin has unique histories, therefore is distinguishable from other bitcoin, therefore is NOT fungible.
A wiseman once said: "You don't ask nicely that everyone else not spend your coins; You just protect them using a cryptographic key.
Similarly, you don't ask nicely everyone else not distinguish your monetary units; You just make them *technically* indistinguishable AKA fungible."
https://sethforprivacy.com/posts/fungibility-graveyard/
*Right now* you cannot derive amounts or recievers on Monero. Senders is the weakest layer but is still probabilistic (~6% chance). I can actively probe LN and save that data if I wanted. You think chain analysis and governments are not doing that right now? Those who want to CAN do it. Remember, you brought up onchain vs offchain not me! It is nice to be ephemeral, and I would want both, surely, but I think it makes little difference in practice vs an active adversary. Encryption and ZKPs are more improtant.
How do Bitcoiners become Liquid shills? It is permissioned and trusted. It also only has 1 of 4 of Moneros privacy tech. And no one uses it for good reason! Pathetic anon set too. Far inferior tool for all these reasons.
Phoenix wallet is non custodial, but neither private nor trustless. They say so themselves. You aren't running your own node so naturally this would be the case it shouldn't be surprising.
Ok, ignore Wallet of Satoshi, Chivo, and Bitcoin Beach (the major ones)...But you are right technically! Blue Wallet is not custodial because they ended offering custodial lightning in April! LOL!
https://www.btctimes.com/news/bluewallet-will-no-longer-support-custodial-lightning-wallet-services
From 2020 to 2021, DNMs offering Bitcoin went from 98% down to 91%. Monero jumped from 45% to 79%. I showed you a clear and massive trend. Take a wild guess where things are at now in 2023.
You don't need to have a blockchain to probe the network for data.
The links are for you to read because you seem to think Lightning is some impenetrable privacy fortress when it was designed around quick off chain payments. Any privacy is an afterthought or happy coincidence stemming from ephemerality of being off chain.
It also suffers from the same category of problems, optional instead of default privacy, just like Bitcoin. Meaning ignorance or friction involved will keep ~99% of users from using it semi privately. Using LN in any sovereign, private manner is definitely not for new users.
Let's take one of many metrics and get some insight into what users are downloading:
Custodial (no privacy)
Chivo ~1 Million
Wallet of Satoshi ~500K
BlueWallet ~100K
Bitcoin Beach Wallet ~100K
Non custodial (without node, not trustless, no privacy)
Phoenix ~50K
Breez ~10K
Non custodial (with node, potential privacy)
Zeus ~5K
Wow! How surprising!...
There is a reason no one uses Lightning on Darknet Markets.
You're now pivoting from privacy to scaling. But thats ok.
Which of my criticisms about lightning is wrong? And explain why. I doubt you can. Everything said was basic facts about LN.
You're confused. Global adoption is not an obsession in Monero like it is with Bitcoin. We are not deluded enough to think everyone in the world is going to be using our coin for everyday transactions.
It's hilarious that you think Lightning is going to scale globally since it takes on chain transactions to onboard in the first place. Now, what? I'm stuck on a weaker security layer forever with my entire stack? On chain will be prohibitively unusable for all but the wealthy of bitcoiners in that future. Pray your channels aren't force closed!
Using LN sovereignly is a UX nightmare, not beginner friendly at all, but you simultaneously want every average joe in the world to use it. The outcome is they won't use it soveriegnly. And everyone will use it in a custodial panopticon form just like they do today. Even w/ nostr zaps where people should know better. ~90% use LN custodially (WoS, Chivo, Alby, Bitcoin beach). Remainder use Phoenix (not trustless or private). The truly masochistic run their own nodes.
Yes, I even agree, at this point it would do more harm than good to change bitcoin even if we could since ossification and conservativeness has become such a major value.
I think Bitcoin and Monero have different priorities, some being mutually exclusive like auditability vs privacy. It's fine though because I can use both for their strengths. One to save, one to spend.
Would anyone consider gold not scarce since it is constantly being mined?
And scarcity has nothing to do with decentralization
bittorrent p2p file sharing: ❌ not scarce, ✅ decentralized
This is naive.
Most of the Lightning Network is run thru central hubs. You can easily probe and monitor most of the network and save that data for later. You just need to actively do it. Chain analysis companies and governments already do this.