Dude, what vomit. You could replace crypto with vaccine (or something else your government wants you to buy) in all their statements and it would be the exact same.

That's offensive.

Ps 16:11

You make known to me the path of life;

In your presence there is fullness of joy;

At your right hand there are pleasures forevermore.

Just a cursory review of Gramsci would support that. One scholar said that Gramsci was a proponent of teaching sex to kids early to help undermine the traditional family and replace it with the state system. I’m sure Freud would have seen the power of that tactic. Not saying Freud harbored pedo tendencies, but he did boil most things down to sex and basic id functions. And if you want a great critique of cultural Marxism from a Biblical standpoint, Fault Lines by Voddie Bachman is a must read.

Good call. He was one of those early voices trying to move Marxism beyond just the economic dimension. Frankfurt school did not develop in a vacuum.

I will find that Suure Moscht somewhere and enjoy one for you. Absolute pleasure chatting with you.

FeyssPalmer, if we ever meet in person, the drink of your choice is on me. And, I thank you for an equally thoughtful and respectful exchange. I hope I understand your view correctly, that what we consider “morality” is the natural result of generational selection that fosters a more stable and functional society. Those traits are the ones passed on to our progeny. And, we have decided to call those traits “morality.” If so, then this pragmatic approach requires nothing more than to pass those traits on. No God required.

But I think that makes my point. The standards for what is a “good” society change with the wind, nothing is more arbitrary than that. Good by consensus changes with time and geography, as one empire supplants another. What perpetuates certain members of our species can also justify the worst crimes. Without an external law Giver, however, these actions are not “crimes”. And yes, I think you see my view correctly, an unchanging standard of morality must exist, or there is none. And, yes, my list of gods was woefully inadequate. You can lump all pantheistic religions into being part of the system they measure, therefore subjective. But the One that must exist outside the system in order to judge fairly is also the One that offers the way to pay for those crimes. He offers Himself. Not just the self sacrifice of a good man, but the Lawgiver Himself. And we, who were quite evil and selfish, are changed into better people as a result. That is what is fundamentally different about the person of Jesus Christ among all the ancient agrarian or early bronze age religions you listed.

Ultimately, I think your system lacks justice. Evil can be hidden and never made right. And I think your system allows evil to grow, under the justification that it is for the “greater good” of the species. And, from what I have read of your words, you definitely value truth, you truly value people, and you innately know there is a right and wrong. You claim that is the result of favorable genes. The Bible claims that God puts eternity into our hearts (Ecclesiastes 3:11). We know there is something after we die, but we purposely suppress this knowledge because we choose evil rather than good (Romans 1:16-32). There is a Moral Law, we know some things are right and wrong, but there is also something wrong with us because we know what’s right but don’t do it. I know you don’t see the Bible as authority. I only quote those two versus because I am not the source of truth, nor do I claim to be able to define right or wrong for myself. My human attempts at that put myself first and hurt other people. I only can point others to the One who does show us what is good. Because He made us in His image, all of us, and He is of intrinsic and infinite value, we therefore have value. That is why murder is wrong. God will seek justice for the innocent, He will not just let that go. He is merciful, but he is also just. Ok, this tome does not answer all your very legitimate questions and objections. It is too long already. But I hope that at the bare minimum, as a result of our exchange, there are two more people that understand each other better and truly want the best for the other. If you choose to respond, I’ll definitely read and consider your words, even a short response, but I’ll close out the thread.

Ah man, I was gonna offer you phat stacks for that BTC. A deal not seen for “centuries.”

I really know that feeling. Keep progressing, a little at a time, and try the advanced class again later. The piranhas might come back, but you might also surprise yourself at how strong you’ve become.

(Social media is a bad medium for honest or civil debate, these convos are so much better in person). But I appreciate your directness and I’ll try to respond clearly. Yes. I am making a moral claim. Without an objective standard, one from outside the system you inhabit, you logically have subjective morality. To answer your other question, which standard is right….All forms of pantheism where God is part of creation degenerates into subjectivism. Your view, a form of atheism, reduces good and evil to pragmatism…to that which makes for a “better” society or perpetuates the species. But you have no basis to declare something better or worse. If it helps to perpetuate your genetic line, regardless of the action, then it is pragmatic and the bare basis for your morality. But, there is evil, you know there is. You know some things are just wrong. But your view cannot justify why. Yet, you inherently know that evil is wrong. We must, therefore, have an objective standard given to us from outside ourselves against which to measure our thoughts, words, and actions. If that standard is to be trusted, it must not violate laws of “non Contradiction.” That is, the standard must be internally consistent. Odinism or the Greek pantheon are just super humans who have the same weaknesses as us, capricious and finite. Islam presents one outside of creation but offers no forgiveness for those of us that violate the moral standards, unless you die in jihad in defense of the dar-al-Islam. Islam presents a god so distant and removed, that it cannot be understood at all let alone followed consistently. The The Person of Jesus Christ, who actually was righteous, who actually lived the life that we are supposed to live, who fulfills the Law that we see in the Old Testament, and is in fact that very moral Lawgiver in the flesh, it is He alone that took on our flesh to pay the price that we deserve. We deserve death for what we have done. That’s the right penalty for violating God’s law, for the evil that we’ve done. And, only by faith in Him and His amazing grace towards us, that we can become born anew and from above, and enter into a New Covenant (or new relationship) with Him. He will live in us that we can become more like Him. That’s what we were created to be. The moral law of God is thus satisfied, justice is done, we now have a consistent basis for right and wrong, and we can worship Him alone, obey His command to defend the weak or to seek justice for the oppressed, we can even sacrifice knowing He will ultimately make all things right. And we have His Word rather than political power brokers or religious figureheads to guide us. You can read it for yourself. Bible apps are often free. If you made it this far, I promise to read any response you make, you are after all in the image of God and have infinite worth. But we should allow this thread to end soon. Thank you for the opportunity to present my faith to you. It’s an honor to do so.

Trained their kids to be warriors from birth, and those kids took out the trash themselves!

Volatility = opportunity

I think the point of the meme was not that people can be compelled to accept truth by overwhelming reason and logic, which is impossible, but that it is horrifying to see the implications of a worldview that rejects an absolute standard. I will not be able to convince you, that is not my job, but here is an example of what the meme what getting at. The atheist Nietzsche rejects God and then has no standard for good and evil so he goes “Beyond Good and Evil” in his book. He rejects absolute truth, so you must create your own meaning. Even if that meaning is gaining power and oppressing the weak. In the attempt to free yourself from God, you end up rejecting the very ideas of truth and evil, which you mentioned in your reply and which shows you value these things. But, the implication of the atheist worldview (hence the meme) is that these have no value in your worldview and any pursuit of them as an atheist is self defeating. That is the absurdity that is difficult to face. Either embrace subjective morality and meaning as Nietzsche did, or logically and reasonably conclude that there cannot be any definition of good or evil without an absolute standard that exists outside the system it is measuring. Without God, nothing is truly “evil” because He defines what is good.

I ❤️ free markets.

That song is far better in the original Klingon.