I still like him. 🙂

lol sorry for double post. Nostr client issues... Almost triple posted 😅

Ah ok. He's talking about reclaiming unclaimed tokens. That's not really a clawback, at least not how I understand the term. This is like an unfinalized lightning transaction that later fails, like with a hold invoice. It's a great feature because it means you aren't sending your money into a black hole.

A clawback (I think the most commonly understood definition of the term) is when you finalize the transaction and then reverse it later. This is how check fraud or credit card fraud works. This is not possible with ecash. Once the token is claimed there is nothing either party can do to reverse that transaction.

The mint can't even act unless the user accused of fraud deanonymizes their ecash token, which they have no incentive to do. Even in that case, the mint can't know for sure which user to reissue it to because they both have the blinded secret. Ecash is too private; the mint knows nothing and can't really act so clawbacks are not possible.

It seems we are talking past each other. You got a reference I can check out?

You can't do chargebacks with ecash. It also has better privacy properties than lightning.

Ecash has better UX, as you said, because the overhead of maintaining a lightning node is offloaded to the custodian, who can be compensated in the form of fees.

Is this the value for value everybody keeps talking about? Liquidity management, uptime, and privacy provided in exchange for transaction fees. Seems like a good trade to me b/c I don't want to do all of that work just to zap shitposts.

Which is it? Brittle and complex or better UX? You can't take both sides of the argument.

Not sure why you are accusing me of being a shitcoiner. Do you have a rational line of reasoning or is this just plain old ad hominem?

Speaking from an end-user standpoint that views lightning as rival to ecash, which is the entire premise of your original argument. Unless you want to walk that back...?

> we shouldn't outright deny that path to people

Developers not building features is not denying options to users. Framing it as such is disingenuous. There are way more lightning devs than ecash devs. Nobody is stopping them from building.

> I also believe we can make this path more attractive with more development and more engineering effort.

We agree on this. Lightning is not done yet.

> ecash can't really be a true p2p electronic payment option because at the end of the day you still need lightning to verify if its a real payment

This is a fallacy arising from your view of custodial payment solutions as "not real". Ecash is an electronic bearer instrument (a.k.a. cash) that cannot be selectively disabled for specific users. It is peer-to-peer electronic cash. People have been using custodial cash solutions for hundreds of years. It's a very real form of money. The entire world economy runs on this "not real" form of money.

> I just see it as a more complicated stack with less reliable payment option for vendors accepting payments.

lol wat? Just look at the specs bro. Ecash is ridiculously simple compared to lightning. You don't need to take my word for it, just watch what gets built. The reason it seems like lightning is losing ground to ecash is because it is. Lightning is held back by its own protocol complexity. Perhaps you know too much about how lightning works to appreciate the difference. Can't see the forest for the trees.

Your other arguments all stem from the view that custodial bearer asset money is somehow "not real". This is the kool-aid talking. If the payer and payee both trust the mint then ecash is simply better than lightning. If your transaction is large enough that you don't want to trust the mint then use lightning or on-chain. This is the best of all worlds. This is the future.

"Forced" to use the better technology by developers who choose to build on the best tech stack. I mean, that's one way to interpret the word "force". I don't think it's the agreed upon definition of the word, though.

Other flaws in your thinking:

You ignore the challenges of running a lightning node, focusing exclusively on the switching cost from custodial lightning to self-hosted lightning.

You also haven't considered or perhaps have dismissed the use cases where lightning simply isn't up to the challenge like paid APIs. Lightning latency and payment failures kill this use case. Ecash is true peer-to-peer electronic cash because it solves all of the scaling issues that self-custody lightning faces.

The best system is a graduated system. We will never get there by ignoring one entire side of the tech stack out of an ill-conceived reactionary stance that focuses exclusively on the failings of the old system.

> ecash forces custody

no one is forced to use ecash. you are thinking of governments, ecash is built by cypherpunks. very different

historically, this is a non-factor. most elites were captured and ransomed by the opposing side

why do you think trump prevented israel from killing khamenei? because killing your political enemies is bad politics

it's always been expensive. only question is who pays

wars end when the money runs out

GM sir

☝️➕🥜󠅓󠅑󠅣󠅘󠅥󠄲󠅟󠄢󠄶󠅤󠅓󠄢󠅘󠄠󠅔󠄸󠄲󠅪󠄿󠅙󠄨󠅦󠅉󠄢󠄶󠅪󠅑󠄸󠅅󠅥󠅉󠅝󠄩󠅘󠅔󠄸󠄾󠅘󠅔󠅇󠄾󠅪󠅉󠅈󠅂󠅘󠅔󠄹󠄷󠅙󠅉󠅇󠅜󠄹󠄱󠄷󠅅󠄝󠅓󠄷󠅄󠄷󠄩󠅁󠅊󠅘󠅓󠄹󠄷󠅛󠅉󠅇󠄵󠅉󠄹󠄷󠄶󠅪󠅕󠄵󠄱󠅨󠅉󠅄󠅆󠅛󠅊󠅇󠅁󠄥󠄽󠅚󠄶󠅜󠅊󠅚󠅁󠄤󠄾󠅪󠅜󠅛󠅉󠅄󠄱󠄣󠄽󠄷󠅆󠅛󠅉󠅚󠅆󠅝󠄽󠅚󠅘󠅝󠅊󠅄󠅉󠄣󠄽󠅄󠅔󠅚󠅉󠅪󠅁󠅪󠅊󠄴󠄹󠄠󠄾󠄴󠅗󠄣󠄾󠄴󠄵󠄣󠅉󠅄󠅓󠄣󠄽󠅝󠄵󠄠󠄿󠅄󠄾󠅜󠅉󠅪󠅗󠄣󠄽󠅝󠅉󠄤󠄿󠄴󠄽󠄤󠅉󠅇󠄾󠅉󠄹󠅁󠄼󠄧󠅩󠅝󠅔󠅀󠅞󠄣󠄝󠄢󠄡󠄷󠄧󠅨󠄻󠅄󠄧󠅣󠅜󠅃󠅁󠄝󠅀󠅂󠅁󠅕󠅏󠅙󠄝󠄴󠅑󠅛󠅢󠄨󠅗󠄺󠄥󠄽󠄱󠅊󠅉󠄥󠅩󠄢󠄶󠅛󠅟󠄢󠄶󠅜󠅇󠄳󠄴󠅑󠄿󠅞󠅦󠅡󠅀󠄨󠅉󠅆󠅞󠅃󠅁󠅧󠅩󠄢󠅨󠄺󠄝󠅧󠄝󠄢󠅩󠅊󠄳󠅥󠄽󠅄󠅂󠄨󠄠󠄺󠅊󠄠󠄝󠄦󠅖󠄩󠅒󠄧󠅆󠄼󠅂󠅇󠄶󠅪󠅇󠄳󠄴󠄦󠄳󠄡󠅜󠅤󠅣󠄧󠄴󠄝󠄽󠅦󠄷󠅛󠅡󠅂󠅔󠄥󠅛󠅖󠄾󠄡󠄦󠅡󠅩󠅟󠄥󠄳󠄱󠅡󠅟󠄾󠅩󠅙󠅃󠅞󠅀󠅠󠅊󠅕󠅟󠅥󠄨󠄢󠄶󠅩󠅇󠄳󠄳󠅀󠅛󠅒󠅖󠅔󠄩󠅨󠅁󠅪󠄱󠄾󠄥󠅟󠅚󠅏󠄷󠅊󠄧󠅙󠄽󠄩󠅝󠄽󠄽󠅠󠅖󠄝󠄠󠄼󠅃󠅧󠅚󠅢󠄸󠅖󠅁󠄵󠅚󠅔󠅪󠄽󠅅󠄱

> emojis are one of the lamest inventions of the internet.

🤡😝🤣

Not in a million years

Never gonna happen

🧜

Sick dude! Yeah I'm gonna wait for it to get dark and see if I can sneak away. I missed the morning window. Not trying to catch a heat stroke.

Is that you? Nice! 😎🛹

or maybe you're not planning to live that long lol

look we don't need to get specific

let's focus on results

ubuntu is the right curve choice

🥜󠅓󠅑󠅣󠅘󠅥󠄲󠅟󠄢󠄶󠅤󠅔󠄢󠅘󠄠󠅔󠄸󠄲󠅪󠄿󠅙󠄨󠅦󠅒󠅇󠅜󠅥󠅔󠄳󠄤󠅨󠄽󠄴󠄽󠅨󠄽󠄴󠄱󠅥󠅕󠄸󠅜󠄦󠅉󠅈󠅆󠅚󠅓󠄢󠄶󠄠󠅉󠅈󠅃󠄲󠅟󠅝󠄶󠅠󠅃󠄱󠄳󠅂󠅑󠄧󠄩󠄝󠄝󠅂󠅟󠄢󠅉󠅈󠄳󠄵󠅠󠄷󠄶󠅘󠄷󠄳󠄲󠅘󠅓󠄣󠅘󠄱󠄾󠅄󠅔󠅙󠅊󠄴󠄺󠅘󠄽󠅝󠅂󠅚󠄽󠄷󠅁󠄢󠄾󠄷󠅁󠅪󠅉󠅪󠅉󠅧󠅉󠅇󠄺󠅚󠅊󠅇󠄵󠄡󠄽󠄢󠅉󠅧󠄽󠄷󠅆󠅜󠄽󠄷󠄵󠅨󠅊󠅚󠅜󠅜󠄽󠅄󠅓󠄥󠄽󠄴󠅉󠅪󠅉󠅪󠄹󠅩󠄿󠅇󠅅󠄢󠄾󠅪󠄶󠅙󠅊󠄷󠄵󠅨󠅉󠅝󠅂󠅝󠄽󠄴󠅅󠄤󠄿󠄴󠅓󠄠󠅊󠅇󠄶󠅚󠅇󠄳󠄵󠄳󠅓󠅤󠅘󠅞󠅦󠄳󠄵󠅙󠄿󠄣󠅒󠅇󠅜󠅑󠅏󠅠󠅘󠄷󠄨󠄹󠅜󠅢󠅇󠅣󠄦󠅞󠅣󠄳󠅓󠅒󠅊󠅅󠅉󠅃󠅠󠅗󠅪󠅝󠄠󠅖󠅠󠄼󠅂󠅘󠅊󠄻󠄾󠅘󠅊󠅆󠅗󠅗󠅅󠅧󠄺󠄣󠄝󠅟󠅠󠄸󠅕󠅜󠅦󠅂󠄷󠅊󠄳󠅓󠅁󠄝󠄴󠄶󠄹󠄤󠅅󠅃󠅜󠄠󠄤󠄺󠅪󠄡󠄠󠅇󠅉󠅄󠄢󠅅󠄦󠅑󠅢󠅣󠅕󠄷󠄾󠅘󠅓󠄡󠅗󠅗󠄤󠅠󠄿󠅪󠄤󠅢󠅦󠅇󠄳󠅩󠅜󠅂󠅏󠄧󠅝󠅠󠅖󠄠󠄠󠄷󠄳󠄣󠄱󠅔󠅦󠅖󠅈󠅥󠄺󠅝󠅜󠅨󠄶󠄸󠄝󠅚󠅉󠄨󠄾󠄤󠅪󠄝󠅔󠅘󠅓󠅜󠅗󠅗󠅉󠄧󠄴󠅈󠅈󠅔󠅏󠅥󠄠󠅧󠄸󠄹󠅉󠅙󠅠󠄼󠄴󠅗󠅇󠄿󠅉󠅒󠅉󠅄󠄼󠅠󠄲󠄲󠄣󠅥󠅑󠄣󠄨󠅉󠅃󠅨󠄤󠅈󠅡󠅪󠅡󠄧󠄦󠅛󠅉󠅇󠄵󠅁󠅉󠅈󠄾󠄤󠅁󠄷󠅉󠅪󠄾󠄴󠅊󠅚󠄾󠄷󠅁󠄡󠄽󠅝󠄵󠄥󠄽󠄷󠄺󠅚󠄿󠄷󠅆󠅝󠅉󠅚󠄱󠄡󠄽󠄢󠅂󠅙󠅉󠅚󠅉󠄢󠄽󠅄󠄽󠅧󠄿󠄴󠅅󠅩󠄾󠅄󠅅󠄤󠄾󠄴󠄶󠅜󠄿󠅄󠅆󠅙󠄽󠅚󠅅󠄢󠅊󠄴󠅓󠅧󠄽󠅚󠅊󠅚󠅊󠅚󠅆󠅝󠄽󠅇󠅉󠄥󠅊󠄴󠄱󠄢󠄽󠄷󠄾󠅙󠄿󠄴󠅂󠅘󠅉󠄡󠅗󠅘󠄱󠅚󠄾󠅙󠅏󠅨󠅟󠅏󠄡󠅒󠄻󠄩󠅠󠄶󠅘󠅜󠅔󠄴󠄳󠅖󠅉󠄩󠅕󠅄󠄻󠅗󠅅󠅂󠅊󠅧󠄿󠅩󠅧󠄝󠄩󠄩󠅤󠄳󠄝󠅝󠄠󠅒󠅔󠅟󠅉󠅇󠅃󠅚󠅉󠅇󠅆󠅉󠄹󠄿󠄧󠄼󠅤󠅁󠅢󠅜󠅗󠄹󠅥󠅉󠄲󠅘󠄧󠄺󠅠󠅔󠅉󠅅󠄲󠅉󠅦󠄹󠄿󠅢󠅞󠅏󠅠󠄶󠅝󠄨󠄹󠅅󠅓󠅂󠅆󠄲󠅔󠅜󠄾󠅙󠄦󠄲󠅉󠅈󠄾󠅉󠄹󠄱󠅖󠅦󠅇󠅃󠅊󠅢󠅟󠅅󠅨󠄣󠅃󠅕󠄱󠅦󠅘󠄸󠅖󠅜󠄤󠅣󠄨󠄥󠅡󠅠󠄴󠄦󠅇󠅁󠄦󠅆󠄤󠄥󠅀󠅑󠅈󠄼󠅇󠅓󠅑󠄢󠅀󠅉󠅉󠅈󠄺󠅉󠄹󠄹󠅡󠄻󠄠󠅒󠅂󠅧󠅡󠅛󠄧󠅢󠅥󠅟󠅣󠅄󠄺󠅦󠄵󠅔󠄲󠅛󠅪󠅗󠅔󠅒󠄝󠄨󠅕󠄻󠄽󠅒󠅩󠅟󠅞󠅞󠄤󠅣󠄤󠅧󠅂󠄽󠅥󠅓󠅠󠄷󠄶󠅘󠄳󠄷󠄶󠅪󠅕󠄵󠄱󠅩󠄽󠅚󠄱󠅧󠅉󠅪󠄽󠄣󠄾󠅪󠄺󠅝󠄾󠅪󠅁󠄥󠄿󠄴󠄲󠅛󠅊󠄴󠄱󠄡󠅊󠅄󠄺󠅝󠄾󠄷󠄵󠅧󠅊󠅝󠅆󠅚󠄿󠄴󠄽󠅨󠅉󠅄󠅅󠄣󠄽󠅄󠅁󠄢󠅊󠅚󠄱󠄤󠅉󠅄󠅔󠅙󠅉󠅪󠄱󠅪󠅊󠄷󠄶󠅘󠅉󠅚󠄹󠅪󠄿󠅄󠄺󠅛󠄿󠅄󠅓󠄤󠄾󠄷󠅁󠄢󠄽󠅪󠄺󠅝󠅉󠅇󠄾󠅉󠄹󠅁󠄼󠅏󠅞󠅖󠅂󠅑󠅀󠅓󠅂󠅡󠅏󠅚󠅜󠅩󠄶󠄱󠄱󠅊󠅘󠅄󠅃󠅡󠅏󠄢󠅓󠄳󠅣󠅦󠅀󠄲󠅛󠅞󠅪󠄵󠄴󠄢󠅁󠅨󠅨󠅦󠅡󠄠󠅑󠄢󠄶󠅛󠅟󠄢󠄶󠅜󠅇󠄳󠄳󠄱󠅠󠅨󠄲󠄻󠅏󠅟󠅜󠄩󠅅󠅥󠄻󠄥󠅄󠄱󠅤󠅠󠅥󠄩󠄦󠅪󠅪󠄻󠅨󠅃󠅥󠅦󠄵󠅈󠅒󠅚󠄢󠄡󠅗󠅒󠅟󠄢󠅢󠄢󠅜󠅒󠄿󠅇󠄶󠅪󠅇󠄳󠄳󠄱󠅘󠅘󠄲󠅞󠅢󠅤󠄱󠅝󠅩󠅔󠅗󠅈󠄨󠅢󠄵󠅜󠅟󠄲󠅊󠅉󠅖󠄼󠄻󠅜󠄝󠅓󠅝󠅇󠅞󠄩󠄾󠄳󠄩󠅠󠅀󠅈󠄸󠄸󠄣󠅒󠄤󠄢󠄶󠅩󠅇󠄳󠄳󠅙󠄥󠅥󠄾󠅜󠅄󠄲󠅙󠄧󠅤󠄴󠄥󠅇󠅧󠅆󠅔󠅣󠄳󠅑󠄴󠅨󠄱󠅂󠅓󠄡󠄾󠅢󠄶󠅩󠅗󠄠󠄥󠅨󠅡󠄿󠅀󠄡󠅧󠅁󠅅󠅡󠅢󠅑󠅂󠅘󠅉󠅁󠅘󠅘󠅓󠄣󠅘󠄱󠅉󠅚󠄹󠄠󠅉󠅇󠅁󠄡󠅉󠅪󠅊󠅜󠄿󠅄󠅅󠅧󠄿󠅄󠅆󠅜󠄾󠄢󠄹󠄥󠄽󠄴󠅜󠅚󠄽󠄴󠅁󠅧󠄾󠄢󠅆󠅝󠄽󠅝󠅁󠄥󠅉󠅪󠅁󠅧󠄿󠅄󠅁󠄡󠄿󠅄󠄶󠅝󠄾󠅚󠅛󠅩󠄽󠄷󠅊󠅝󠅉󠅚󠄱󠄡󠄿󠄴󠄽󠄡󠅉󠅄󠅅󠅩󠅊󠅄󠄱󠄣󠄾󠅪󠄵󠄣󠄿󠅇󠅉󠄥󠄿󠄷󠄶󠅚󠅇󠄳󠄵󠄴󠄦󠄡󠅕󠄱󠅄󠄠󠄥󠄝󠅞󠅘󠅊󠄩󠄷󠅕󠅅󠄢󠄣󠅈󠅞󠅏󠅈󠄾󠅞󠄩󠅟󠅙󠄱󠄵󠅙󠄳󠅢󠄤󠄾󠄢󠅨󠄦󠅡󠅝󠄩󠄶󠅉󠄱󠄲󠅘󠅊󠄻󠄾󠅘󠅊󠅆󠅗󠅗󠅄󠅏󠅢󠅒󠅗󠄩󠅡󠅜󠅛󠅓󠅉󠄵󠄦󠄺󠅕󠅠󠅞󠄾󠅘󠄤󠅇󠄻󠅘󠄹󠄼󠅊󠄴󠅆󠄺󠄠󠅨󠅛󠅓󠅟󠅒󠄿󠄸󠅗󠄦󠄵󠅦󠄾󠄾󠅘󠅓󠄡󠅗󠅗󠄦󠅤󠄹󠄴󠅧󠅢󠄳󠅖󠅩󠅀󠅞󠄶󠅙󠅁󠅦󠄻󠅅󠅩󠄧󠅠󠅩󠅤󠄣󠅞󠅕󠅤󠄝󠄳󠄨󠅡󠅢󠄠󠄼󠅡󠄲󠅛󠄼󠅄󠅔󠅦󠄸󠄩󠅘󠅘󠅓󠅜󠅗󠅗󠄝󠅞󠅉󠅀󠅣󠄣󠅄󠅛󠄥󠄴󠅆󠅒󠅓󠄾󠅖󠄶󠅊󠅀󠄱󠄳󠅊󠅤󠅢󠅑󠄳󠅁󠄡󠅖󠅗󠅜󠄱󠅂󠅆󠅊󠄿󠅆󠅝󠄣󠅡󠅃󠅒󠅁󠅉

Check out my nostr:nprofile1qqsxhwmaw842y4zzzk580cfke4l5jr6xyh44v3v6pk59dnyzjm2a7vqcd5flv talk about what a decentralized mining stack should look like. Stay on the line to watch nostr:nprofile1qyfhwue69uhnzv3h9cczuvpwxyargwpk8yqsuamnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dshsqgxn6aqjfh0mt0wxrw8335tuxv6mhd8ccugc9g67ufe3ffy6f6mmr5ggmzh9 give a code tour of Hashpool and live demo of mining up eHash tokens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=F2p_V0svDTo&t=3h15m30s

the troll community is strong here

yup moxie is super sus, probably a spook

it could be the everything app, but moxie had to go and pump his bags...

Spillman channels are due for a comeback.

operation greenwash underway