Where are people suddenly getting this “hurried and contentious” thing? Paul has been talking about this for well over half of Bitcoin’s existence.

I think people are just turning away from any uncomfortable discussion of security budget by saying “well nobody knows”

I have some objections to this analysis.

The "wildly contradictory" arguments that you point to are precisely the problem: Fees could be so high that only rich people can use L1 (plebs sure aren't going to spending $50 every transaction) while at the same time even these higher fees could represent a such a small fraction of total market cap that it doesn't keep things secure.

My understanding of the drivechain idea is that it's aiming to aggregate huge volumes of lows fees up to main chain. It's not clear that it would work exactly as planned, but it does represent a possible Goldilocks arrangements that doesn't fall back onto Saylor's silly "oh but rich people pay to transport art and pay real estate agents 3%" argument. I'm having trouble picturing high value investors needing to settle $10 million a few times a second.

Certainly, we're not relying on high value investors constantly making L1 transaction to keep Bitcoin running?

If Bitcoin where to obtain this sort of global store-of-value status such that trillions of dollars was changing hands every day, handling transactions off L1 would have become the norm. If I'm a rich folk settling $10 million in a single transaction, it's not the security of PoW that I'm most interested to pay for, it would be the handling of keys and this sort of thing that your average Walmart heiress isn't going to be confident with - so this will be handled by boutique Swiss bankers, who would devise their own ways to skimp paying the billions of on-chain fees.

The problem with putting the security assumption on high net worth investors is that they are the easiest to capture, they don't care about censorship resistance. If the blockchain is captured by a monopoly miner or a cabal of corporations, it need not cease to be a store of value, as long as these high net worth investors continue to believe it's a store of value.

Also, no need to pile on to this "VC-backed" ad hominem: Either it's a well-thought out idea (since 2015) or it's not

“We should change Bitcoin now in a contentious way to fix the security budget” is basically the same tinkering mentality that central bankers have.

It begins with an overconfident assumption that they know fees won’t be sufficient in the future and that a certain “fix” is going to generate more fees. But some “fixes” could even backfire and create less fees, or introduce bugs, or damage the incentive structure.

The Bitcoin fee market a couple decades out will primarily be a function of adoption or lack thereof. In a world of eight billion people, only a couple hundred million can do an on chain transaction per year, or a bit more with maximal batching. The number of people who could do a monthly transaction is 1/12th of that number. In order to be concerned that bitcoin fees will be too low to prevent censorship in the future, we have to start with the assumption that not many people use bitcoin decades out.

Fedwire has about 100x the gross volume that Bitcoin currently does, with a similar number of transactions. What will Bitcoin’s fee market be if volumes go up 5x or 10x, let alone 50x or 100x? Who wants to raise their hand with a confident model of what bitcoin volumes will be in 2040?

What will someone pay to send a ten million dollar equivalent on chain settlement internationally? $100 in fees per million dollar settlement transaction would be .01%. $300 to get it in a quicker block would be 0.03%. That type of environment can generate tens of billions of dollars of fees annually. The fees that people pay to ship millions of dollars of gold long distances, or to perform a real estate transaction worth millions of dollars, are extremely high. Even if bitcoin is a fraction of that, it would be high by today’s standards. And in a world of billions of people, if nobody wants to pay $100 to send a million dollar settlement bearer asset transaction, then that’s a world where not many people use bitcoin period.

In some months the “security budget” concern trends. In other months, the “fees will be so high that only rich people can transact on chain” concern trends. These are so wildly contradictory and the fact that both are common concerns shows how little we know about the long term future.

I don’t think the fee market can be fixed by gimmicks. Either the network is desirable to use in a couple decades or it’s not. If 3 or 4 decades into bitcoin’s life it can’t generate significant settlement volumes, and gets easily censored due to low fees, then it’s just not a very desirable network at that point for one reason or another.

Some soft forks like covenants can be thoughtfully considered for scaling and fee density, and it’s good for smart developers to always be thinking about low risk improvements to the network that the node network and miners might have a high consensus positive view toward over time. But trying to rush VC-backed softforks, and using security budget FUD to push them, is pretty disingenuous imo.

Anyway, good morning.

Is this just like the Breez lightning App POS feature or are you adding features like;

* Preauthorized transactions similar to bar tabs on Visa.

* Integration with POS terminals like Square and Toast.

* Direct conversion to fiat for those that don't want to deal with the tax implications.

* transaction exports for popular accounting software?

I don't know where the notion comes from that you shouldn't have to work just to live.

The idea of a Universal Basic Income is entirely anti-human. We've always had to work to survive.

Living in an affluent nation in modern times doesn't change the human condition.

If a person loses any source of income and anyway to escape this situation, they will feel redundant. Multiply this by millions, and you have a great, hopeless mob of people-a time bomb. Then add a charismatic leader to this. Can you imagine what could happen? No?

Then remember Germany in the 30s or Russia in 20s and what happened later.

The only thing I feel about this being a bear market is the conversion rate in USD. Everything else is bullish for #bitcoin and is making the water more clear for everyone to see it.

Big news for 🇸🇻 El Salvador's future!

Starting in 2024, #Bitcoin  education is coming to every public school, thanks to Mi Primer Bitcoin NGO's partnership with the Ministry of Education. 💡📚

150 teachers will empower the next generation with financial know-how. 🙌

Is there a way to downgrade the frequency of certain posters in my feed?

I want to keep them in my feed, but they post SO much that it drowns everything else out. I’d love it if they posted 1/3rd as often 😆

Ugh, I was hoping the Drivechains conversation didn't seep into Nostr

Thanks for the welcome.

Is there an #android client that supports keyword mute lists?

That's the only thing I'm really missing so far.

Haha - we do.

I find the place disgusting, fascinating & exciting at the same time.

$15 AUD for a new pair of cheap jeans. WTF? Completely unsustainable.

I had an accident while cutting down a tree.

I'm not sure if I can recover from this financially.

My beard was unharmed but I'm now looking at a trip to Kmart 😂

“Decentralizers of the world, unite!”

Decentralizers: “No!”

hello everyone,

I'm new here, this is my first post, I hope it finds you all well.

just discovered this dapp.

and have a nice free life :)

First post to Nostr

Hi just checking things out looking for Bitcoiners