I don't know if I agree with this "solving their problems" mentality. This is not a SaaS startup, this is a system with network effect. Without having tons of other users we cannot solve anyone's problems.

If we were to apply that approach, though, we could perhaps start with apps that are still useful even if a single user is using them alone, such as a system for writing and publishing personal articles and blogs that people would otherwise use Wordpress or something like that for -- or tools for creating annotations, highlights, web bookmarking, keeping track of things -- but these are all hard to compete because literally anyone else can offer such apps, and if they make these apps do things anything that Nostr is not good at we're screwed. One app that is doing this very well is Zapstore, actually, which is the best app for installing open-source Android apps that exist, apparently because no one else had the idea of trying to to compete against Obtainium and F-Droid or no one was as competent, so we got that.

After that we can go for things that are useful for small groups, which is the entire "communities" talk. I agree with it, but I find it very unspecified. What the hell is a community? Even after listening to hours of TGFN podcast I still have no idea. I know I have been part of things I have considered communities, but when I say some people talking about "community for sports fans" I get the impression that they have no idea of what they're talking about. Anyway, this can also work, but here we're competing against Telegram, Signal, Discord and whatnot, and again we're screwed.

I say we're screwed but I don't really believe we are, because we have one thing that none of the competitors have, which is the promise of a global decentralized social network (and a million other things that come with that). This ideal is sometimes deemphasized because "users don't care about it" and "we have to just make better software", but I don't agree with that. Competing with just software isn't enough. I'm not sure people realize, but for every many well-designed high-quality apps that are launched only very few enjoy actual success, and one way to prevent Nostr apps from being just another failure is to appeal to people who empathize with the Nostr idealistic vision, even if many parts of that vision are not in place yet (we most notably lack the "social" part since there are no users).

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Before someone tells me "the apps have terrible UX and that's why there are no users" put your hand in your heart and tell me sincerely that you think Zapstore has worse UX than Obtainium, now go look at how many people are using and talking about Obtainium and compare that to Zapstore.

What is the reason?

A brief explanation, network effects of market adoption.

Nothing that currently exists is going to beat nostr's network effects in the long run. Nostr is growing a robust network, with a strong core user base. But its still early and there is some fragility, so its okay that we're growing slowly. Anyone that stays after an event with an inflow and outflow of users strengthens the network way more than anyone chasing influencer status.

nostr:naddr1qvzqqqr4gupzphzv6zrv6l89kxpj4h60m5fpz2ycsrfv0c54hjcwdpxqrt8wwlqxqq2k6enp09nxvetz2pey6jf4xgcxvar6f9ky2xvcs6a

We need to embrace B2B. In a B2B context many of Nostr's shortcomings become irrelevant and many of Nostr's strong points become super strong. I get that Nostr wasn't created with B2B in mind, but boy oh boy could it ever scale that way.

Give an example.

Sure thing. For example cross-company social. I'm Company A, I want to have a "shared social space" with Company B. I want this space to be Twitter-like but I want it to feel as neutral as the email relationship I have with Company B. So no "owner". Nostr provides a unique architectural foundation for that.

Many companies work closely with other companies. Retailers and suppliers joined at the hip. Startups and overseas outsource dev teams. The list goes on. You get the idea.

Cross-company social is hard right now—hence it's all mostly still email. Sure you can set up Slack Connect and whatnot, but that's relying on both companies using Slack—and that's also empowering Slack itself—and regardless one company in the mix will always "own" the channel, and that's not fair.

With Nostr, you can set up a cross-company Kind1 social space just like good-old email. Excuse the took-two-minutes fig-jam screenshot here and use your imagination to expand it to multiple companies interacting with multiple other companies in a very nostr-like web. (Or potentially siloed-off departments of the same parent company interacting with each other.)

The Nostr relay system comes into play because every company needs to maintain its own relay(s), and there can be separate relays for different departments (marketing, IT, sales, etc.), all duplicated on either side of the fence. It's almost like Nostr was accidentally made for this.

Key-paris are great because many front-line workers (drivers, security, etc.) don't have SSO pathways. An employee exposed their nsec? Who cares, have the IT person pop a new nsec into that person's Google Workspace profile custom field and the NIP-05 list plus relay filters will update—these are all gated relays, the relay is king, the whole eternally-vexing key management thing is suddenly a non-issue. Non-relay-whitelisted keys become useless.

And the whole "can't delete", "can't edit" thing? Again, it becomes a non issue. When you send an email to Company B can you delete or edit it? No. You can ask them nicely, that's all. Companies just have to educate employees to view cross-company social posts like emails, and that's not hard for employees to understand. This whole thing is just fancy email after all (but still very much needed).

And the whole spam thing? There's no spam. These relays are not open to the wide world.

And the whole "I can't find my community" issue? The community is already there, included in the box, like a phone charger.

PLUS this is all pure Kind1 stuff. Companies chatting with each other across bespoke implementations of Kind1 clients. The dev work on those has mostly been done, the client and relay code is there and open source and MIT and all. What's needed (and what my team is focussed on, perhaps other teams too) is old-fashioned B2B sales and systems-integration support, like Red Hat in the early days, take all the Linux stuff that's out there and support companies to integrate it, help IT teams tweak it, own it, run it (and in doing so eventually become a key contributor to the codebase yourself).

This cross-company market alone is massive. Really massive. Onboard a pair of companies with 1k employees each and that's already an incremental bump in global Nostr usage (albeit one that would be off the nostr.band radar).

And this cross-company Kind1 social is just one example. Many other examples.

Again I get that Nostr wasn't invented for B2B but boy oh boy could the business world ever come to love it.

Thank you, that is a very good description of a real-world use case, and related to what nostr:npub1xtscya34g58tk0z605fvr788k263gsu6cy9x0mhnm87echrgufzsevkk5s has spoken many times about in the past if I'm not mistaken.

The thing is that it is not actually a plan. You argument against Slack Connect was that "companies have to be using Slack already", but what about this one? Companies have to be using Nostr already.

Anyway, I like the vision because it matches my vision too, of niche and community relays, interoperability accross apps and I also agree with how you see the role of relays, deletions, spam and data ownership on Nostr, your view is basically the same as mine, and to me these points are all very obvious and easy.

Another counterpoint to your thesis is that everything you're saying about relays could easily be applied to "non-company" communities too, so why not do it now?

> Companies have to be using Nostr already.

It's old fashioned B2B sales. You find a company that works closely with another company and is open to a pitch, you pitch them together, sell them on your Red Hat implementation of Nostr, and you sit with both IT departments, and you implement it. Maybe you start with pairs of companies already using Slack Connect and you sell them on this as a better and more cost effective option. One by one. Stacking bricks.

> Everything you're saying about relays could easily be applied to "non-company" communities too

Sure, but if it's companies then you (as the systems integrator) can build a decent business yourself, become profitable. Your B2B customers will need you to maintain these implementations, build custom tooling around them. And all the infra is also paid for by the company, so all these questions of "who's gonna pay for the relay?" are moot.

Again similar to Red Hat. At the start they offered boxed versions of Red Hat Linux that could be purchased by anyone. That was their business model. They had some sales, mainly to nerds and enthusiasts, but not many. Then they realised B2B was where the real Linux market was. Not that they had anything against the nerd-and-enthusiast market, Linux is great and everyone can use Linux—just that they wanted to grow faster and this was how.

> to me these points are all very obvious and easy.

What I like about this B2B context is that you don't have to go round in circles with people before they finally agree (if they finally agree) that these points are all very obvious and easy. It's all much more black and white.

I'm in the B2B business. But how do relays fit in there?

Appealing to people who empathize with the nostr idealistic vision (or appreciate it as a system with network effect) means getting stuck in the early adopter phase forever. You can't expect growth from there.

Nostr means nothing without applications built on it, and people use applications when they find them useful, it solves a problem for them. It's only apps that bring people. I give a lot of credit to SaaS platforms that grow because they solve a problem, though they might be fixing some inherently fiat problem and/or creating new ones along the way.

If 0.01% of the population cares about censorship resistance, that is the adoption ceiling.

As for communities, I mean a forum. The most basic community building block. To give an example of problems; you can't view reddit content when signed out or with a VPN. X is also limited. Discord same. Creating accounts is a pain many people agree on. Nostr can help fix that.

Nostr has a lot more interesting value props than censorship resistance that applications can leverage to alleviate people's actual, real problems. Applications should focus on those.

Re: Zapstore, thank you for your words! Appreciate it and I promise you it will get so much better still.

When I talk about the idealistic vision I'm not talking about just censorship resistance.

In fact I wasn't even considering censorship-resistance at all, because I was talking about things that could be used without a huge network-effect, and censorship-resistance is only meaningful with a big network-effect. It was more the openness and interoperability and all the modular parts being combined as well as the identity system and so on.

If you consider that as the idealistic vision I'd say we don't have even 0.001% of all the people that should be very interested in it. So I don't see you can think this is limiting Nostr's growth, this is like thinking that the Wall of China is preventing you from ever leaving your bedroom to go to the bathroom.

Ok, I see, and agree with openness and interoperability. What i'm saying is we need applications to translate those attributes into benefits users perceive and relate to.

Without this basic marketing skill it will be very difficult to grow.

"I say we're screwed but I don't really believe we are"

Well good, I'm glad we've moved on from that!

"because we have one thing that none of the competitors have, which is the promise of a global decentralized social network (and a million other things that come with that)"

And we have built-in monetization along with that decentralization. Which is huge. Arguably all of the social and geopolitical ills of modern social media came out of centralized and inherently exploitative monetization models.

With Lightning network integration Nostr is, uniquely even among Mastodon and Bluesky, beyond that model.