I don’t really see the difference. The company who enlists people by giving free sats has just outsourced the labour. They’ve convinced people to do the work for them, infiltrated the feed vs the notifs, and didn’t have to code a bot.
Discussion
Oh, what I mean is that I’m okay with being paid to *view* an ad. I’m not okay with being paid to force others to view an ad.
The company doing the latter doesn’t say “zap your friends with a note about my business”. They say “I’ll zap you if you tell your friends about me”, with the result being that their ads are shown to others without those friends’ consent.
Does that make more sense?
Yeah, I see what you’re saying.
I was also referring to the zappr bot, as some people thought that was spam but block stream wasn’t 🤷♂️
As long as I can “protect” my attention, that is what is most important to me. Muting zap notifications is an option, but I also enjoy zap battles. I’d love to be able to mute zap notifications from outside my “network”.
I’m not sure how you would combat the other, without muting people who you otherwise enjoy interacting with.
I would put zappr & blockstream in the same general category, but to me, neither is spam, because a proof of work is required before my attention can be caught.
Does muting an account also mute a zap notification from that person? If not… it should!
As for the “zap you if you spam your friends” model, that was what clicked for me today. If I promote a business in exchange for sats, then I’m gonna get myself muted by people who I respect and want to engage with. Not worth it at all, never mind the disingenuous promotion of a brand I don’t personally believe in.
I think this heavily undermines the concept that zaps are signal.
I’m not ok with viewing ads, paid or unpaid. I run my own relay, pay for several more, and donate to Damus development. The day I can’t easy mute ads is the day I go back to being without social media.
I suppose notification settings are going to need to be granular on zaps soon. Notify for zaps from: { followed, all, none }
We are in the same boat kitty Kat.
This is an abuse vector I’ve been expecting, but I think it can be easily solved.
#[4] was an example I found pleasing because it advertised nothing except spreading love and sats around, but functionally it’s just so easy.
If you told me I could advertise to 1000’s of people with a fairly predictable demographic at this point for a couple bucks, I’d jump on it too. Compared to even Facebook ads it’s a steal depending on the market you’re in.
Ads are death in social media. The absolute worst mistake we could make on this protocol is to make it an attractive target for advertising of any sort. Once that money rolls in, everything changes.
I agree with most of this, but I think the influx of advertising dollars is inevitable. What the user needs is control and choice over what - if anything - we see. Just like global feed relay configuration 😂
I agree with most of you guys. The "ad for zap" model is bound to happen. It's just another iteration of "influencer" culture with product placements. You pay me money and I will blast or shill your product to my followers. So the problem is long standing and big problem.
I can see nostr:npub12rze589jx0gg6kslkjfl2gxxkhtlw73t5shyve5qrglrv6c2qflqejj7ns point and I believe it's fair as getting traction as a small business is hard. So why should their be a double standard?
I think reading over this thread it's not so much this question, but how advertising is conducted. I agree with both nostr:npub14qz92uedt0a8jte8jqg63jr3s5cc99cej36jh883z6tprlu354uqqe2q26 and nostr:npub1wtuh24gpuxjyvnmjwlvxzg8k0elhasagfmmgz0x8vp4ltcy8ples54e7js that blatant shilling isn't cool and is a reason why legacy social media is insufferable.
So where do we find a balance?
If I put on my entrepreneur/sales hat I think as a group we must reexamine the approach of making a sale and how we sell products. Applying the traditional sales tactics on savvy consumers like that who inhabit #nostr is going to lead to ruin as a business owner and blow up any sort of goodwill they may have had for us.
I have long been a advocate of "building in public" and the "Orbit Model" of marketing and to me this is one of the paths forward aside from nostr:npub1jg552aulj07skd6e7y2hu0vl5g8nl5jvfw8jhn6jpjk0vjd0waksvl6n8n approach with zapvertising. If I was to build a product/service I want my clients to see my journey when I'm building up my business. I want my product/service to become a story that I have shared with the users that have followed along. My failures, my success, I want the community to see that. When it launches I want to share in the milestone with the community I have built. Doing it this way, to me it's no longer an ad, but I did/doing something cool and it's up to you if your buy something from me or not when that milestone is reached.
So I think their is a right and wrong way to advertise on here and I think those who do it right will be rewarded and the ones that don't will be muted by the very client/community base they are trying to build through consensus. That is the nature of this protocol.
Excellent points:
“…have long been a advocate of "building in public" and the "Orbit Model" of marketing and to me this is one of the paths forward aside from @Blockstream approach with zapvertising. If I was to build a product/service I want my clients to see my journey when I'm building up my business. I want my product/service to become a story that I have shared with the users that have followed along. My failures, my success, I want the community to see that. When it launches I want to share in the milestone with the community I have built. Doing it this way, to me it's no longer an ad, but I did/doing something cool and it's up to you if your buy something from me or not when that milestone is reached.”
What you have written here is exactly why nostr and its clients resonate so much with me. I have been here for many iterations. For the successes and the failures. I am invested in the success and am willing to contribute to grow it and protect it. The best thing is that it feels like we get immediate feedback from the devs. They throw it out here for us to play with, we give feedback, and then they adapt. It builds a social fabric that is resistant and builds loyalty to clients and the protocol.
Grass roots, transparent, shared goals and contributions from a multitude of devs with different ideas. We get to hitch a ride and feel like we are in it to win it.
💯🤝
Totally get where you (both) are coming from here
To me, this is another instance where nostr clients should offer the optionality and control over your own experience.
Any user is free to part with their own sats as desired. It should also be each user’s choice whether or not to know about it, or to read an attached zap note, etc.
My main point is that zapping one user to incentivize him to spam all of his followers, with no zap compensation or consent from those followers, is a different game, and it’s one that I’m uncomfortable participating in. Zap me to show me a note — okay, that’s my choice to accept — but pay me to spam my followers without their consent…. No thanks uncle
I can 💯 stand next to you on that sentiment. If people want to do this, they can, but I absolutely should be able to filter it - and do so easily.
I’m sure controls will come out of it as things grow.
Yes. I made the same point about zappr and blockstream. They are not any different, if they are spam then they are both spam. If they are a zapvetisent then they both are.
Spam for a friend model is clever because it beats the filters and hits the feed, but comes at a huge cost to the “friends”. If it happens again, I’m sure many people will be muted and unfollowed.
#[2] #[3]
Do y’all kno who blockstream is? Connection to Damus dev. Blockstream is Will’s #[4] former employer
(forbes)
