i am not aware of another stupid little antimonero site
so the honor of "most popular" is all yours.
and you're still lying here
Discussion
A statement is not a lie just because you disagree with it
aha
except its not a disagreement.
i have shown what the document ACTUALLY says
you have failed to show any supporting evidence and will only share your own interpretation of the data.
ie
you lie about what it says.
show me where they suggest AT ALL they "trace Monero"
and they absolutely DO NOT say they found the admin of Incognito by tracing his monero
ill wait for your correction.
why do you format your posts this way?...
format my posts
what way?
hey Skip
find the place in that document the DoJ claims they trace monero.
Pages 24-25, the section "LIN’s Crypto Account-1 Received Marketplace-1 proceeds," subparagraphs i, ii, iii, and iv
Those four sections only say "Bitcoin was sent to a swap service and after X minutes, Monero arrived at the suspects CEX account"
as they explicitly explain in subparagraph v
"v. These transfers appear to indicate that the transferor used Swapping
Service-1 to obscure the source of the money transferred from Administrator Wallet-1 to Crypto
Account-1. That is, rather than transfer money from Administrator Wallet-1 directly to Crypto
Account-1, cryptocurrency was first swapped through Swapping Service-1 and converted from
Bitcoin to Monero, which is a cryptocurrency that is much more difficult to trace. After the swap,
the funds were transferred into LIN’s Crypto Account"
Still waiting for supporting evidence they did any "tracing" of Monero...
because those four paragraphs aren't it.
and your assertion that they identified him *through* any activity like that is another straight up lie.
Those paragraphs precisely identify three of the four steps of a timing analysis trace and imply the other:
(1) the target acquired amount K of XMR on exchange A
(2) he withdrew amount K of XMR from exchange A (this is the one they imply)
(3) he sent amount K of XMR to exchange B
(4) he did this all within the span of a few minutes
Describing a timing analysis trace is supporting evidence that they did a trace of monero. They did a similar trace 4 times in each of the subparagraphs I cited.
> your assetion that they identified him *through* any activity like that is another straight up lie
They did the trace for a precise reason: without that evidence, they only *suspected* the target laundered the money. In order to *identify* him as the perpetrator, they needed to do the trace that linked the criminal proceeds to a monero wallet and then do a further trace to link that monero wallet to his KYC'd identity (and they did that part by tracing it to a CEX that had his identity documents)
ok so you admit then they make no claim they traced monero and these 4 paragraphs are just "supporting evidence" that a trace was performed.
those 4 paragraphs do not contain the information you claim.
there is NO "exchange A." it is a swapping service and they never suggest or imply the suspect had control of the funds here or that they have any transparency into them.
so we can throw your points 1 and 2 right into the toilet
as you see below in *the actual text* there is no suggestion the subject made a withdrawal from the swap service at all.
the ONLY information they provide in those 4 paragraphs is that Bitcoin was sent in to the swap and after 20 minutes, Monero arrived at the CEX.
everything else is YOUR supposition.
all four have the format
"On or about May 17, 2022, at approximately 09:59 UTC, Administrator
Wallet-1 transferred 1 Bitcoin to Swapping Service1 where it was swapped for approximately 176.07 XMR. Approximately 27 minutes after the 1 Bitcoin transfer from Administrator Wallet-1, which was converted to 176.07 XMR, Crypto Account-1 received a deposit of 180 XMR"
show me the "trace" in this text.
> these 4 paragraphs are just "supporting evidence" that a trace was performed
"Supporting evidence" is the precise term you used when you said you were waiting for "supporting evidence" that they traced monero
Now you criticize me for using it? Sheesh.
> there is NO "exchange A." it is a swapping service
A swapping service is an exchange
> as you see below in *the actual text* there is no suggestion the subject made a withdrawal from the swap service at all. ... "On or about May 17, 2022, at approximately 09:59 UTC, Administrator
Wallet-1 transferred 1 Bitcoin to Swapping Service1 where it was swapped for approximately 176.07 XMR. Approximately 27 minutes after the 1 Bitcoin transfer from Administrator Wallet-1, which was converted to 176.07 XMR, Crypto Account-1 received a deposit of 180 XMR"
There is evidence in the text you provided that he made a withdrawal from the exchange: he acquired "approximately 176.07 XMR" on the swapping service and 27 minutes later his CEX account "received a deposit of 180 XMR." Where did the extra 4 XMR come from? The implication is clear to me: he withdrew from the swapping service (Exchange A) to somewhere with some extra funds, and then sent the money from there to the CEX.
> show me the "trace" in this text
The text accurately describes a timing analysis trace.
just making it clear that it is YOU and not the document that is claiming a trace of monero was done.
and it certainly describes timing analysis of a Bitcoin to Monero swap.
that we agree on .
but only a disingenuous liar would try to spin that as "tracing monero".
and your suggestion they "found the admin" through this weak-ass timing analysis is still unsupported anywhere.
it seems like I keep providing evidence and you keep saying "that is not evidence, it's just you saying things"
if you have nothing further to add then I think we are done here
bro I agree the appearance of 4 xmr suggests he's going to a self-custodial wallet before the coins go to the CEX
but the document doesnt "imply" anywhere they have insight into that wallet or that it even exists.
therefore there is no evidence here a "trace" was ever performed.
and in every other example the amounts are basically identical.
so youre not "providing evidence"
you're suggesting your own conclusions about what the evidence means.
all based on ONE amount discrepancy.
so you're either lying or have REALLY bad confirmation bias.
the data we have here does NOT show evidence of any trace.
> the document doesnt "imply" anywhere they have insight into that wallet
It's still a timing analysis trace, it meets all 4 conditions. You act like condition 2 requires there to be an external wallet; I think there is evidence of an external wallet, but it's not even a requirement of doing such a trace. It's theoretically possible for someone to withdraw straight from a swap service to a KYC'd exchange and they could still do a timing analysis on that, though in at least in one case that's obviously not what he did, he clearly sent it to some other wallet first where he picked up 4 extra XMR -- which just makes the trace cover more hops.
> so youre not "providing evidence" ... you're suggesting your own conclusions about what the evidence means
That's a strange pair of sentences. I didn't provide "evidence" but I draw conclusions about "the evidence"? What evidence? The evidence I supposedly didn't provide? Get real.
first reasonable thing youve said all day.
its still bullshit to call observing BTC entering the swap and Monero arriving at the CEX "a monero timing analysis trace."
but retards gonna retard.
as long as we're clear that is what your claim is. I'm sure the reader can decide the rest.
What seems retarded to me is looking at a clear example of a timing analysis trace performed on monero and whining that I shouldn't call it that
just because a fact hurts your narrative doesn't mean it's false
monero is traceable, has been traced, and crimes have been pinned on people due to those traces
oh yeah and lightning offers better tools than monero for making a trace like this more difficult
Seems like you two need to agree on what is or isn’t a “trace” before you can have any constructive conversation. My only interest is in knowing what tools are best for privacy for the “average” user.
yeah i tried that last time.
but he thinks *knowing the address you sent something* is "tracing" it
sooo....
I think you both have valid points but disagree on “definitions” as a non technical person I try to understand both your arguments but I don’t really have the knowledge to verify what either of you are saying. To me it seems the Monero has the best privacy and lightning is private is used properly (node, self custody, etc) but has other limitations such as tx size.
it's part of every poisoned output trace so...yup
Give me your honest take on Monero vs lightning privacy but also addressing any limitations or benefits of each
something being "part of" a larger thing doesnt mean the definition covers that something.
Again back to definitions and meaning you guys need to agree on a dictionary first and interpretation of lol
unfortunately its the internet and words are all we have
but thats exactly why it's important to challenge people who want to redefine them to push their own agenda.
In any case I am interested to hear both sides of the argument because privacy is probably the most undervalued aspect that I want to learn more about
hey I don't think so actually.
Words *already mean something.
to use the example of our last little argument, if I send someone a letter or something to your address, nobody calls that "tracing the letter"
The sender knowing where something goes isn't the definition of "tracing"
So when STN comes along and is like "oh well actually that IS tracing because reason"
No.
The word doesn't mean that. It isn't subjective and we don't have to reach an agreement on definitions before I tell him hes full of shit.
if we have to agree first, then its all like peoples pronouns. "i identify this word as this" and "acknowledge my different interpretation"
we dont want to go there.
I can agree with the logic of knowing where you send something is not tracing. Following it to destination beyond where you sent it would be tracing.
I guess what I mean is words can have multiple definitions and meaning depending on context and culture which can lead to miscommunication.
thats just obvious
the point here tho is that prior consensus about definitions shouldn't be necessary
I say that identifying the destination of your own coins counts as tracing. You may think it doesn't, that's fine. But focusing on whether it technically counts as tracing or not is missing the point, which is: it is bad for receiver privacy for the sender to learn that info. Monero gives that info to the sender for free. Lightning doesn't. That's a point in LN's favor.
then I suggest you frame the problem in those terms since they actually communicate what the real risk is to the reader.
calling it something that it isn't communicates something different.
of course I understand that saying
"its bad for receiver privacy that the sender knows the destination of their payment" isnt as fun as saying "its bad monero is traceable"
but those two statements are not equivalent.
For what I gather in the incognito bust the cex reported him to the Feds for the amount of money he was receiving with out being able to show proof of income…
After that the Feds only traced bitcoin and what was deposited into the cex…
The Feds have not bought drugs with bitcoin…
The Feds watched the btc get washed to xmr and saw it deposited in the cex… (was he really swapping btc straight to an exchange addy or vice versa?)
it looks like their could have been a wallet between the swap and the CEX,
but he still sent it as soon as he could
which makes timing analysis possible.
the fbi agents testimony say they bought drugs off incognito at least 5 times.
nah
you're the retard cause its not a "trace performed on monero"
it's just knowing that XMR arrived in a perps exchange wallet
and you're trying like hell to sell it as something it isnt.
maybe you should advocate for strong privacy on Bitcoins base layer instead of redefining words to fud monero?
just sayin...
> it's just knowing that XMR arrived in a perps exchange wallet
it's not "just" knowing that
it's knowing that the "right amount" of monero arrived in a perp's exchange wallet "in the right time frame" so as to connect it to the "same" amount "withdrawn from" another service
i.e. a timing analysis trace
which is exactly what I said it was
but all thats observed *on the monero side* is XMR arriving at the perps wallet
which is not "tracing monero" except in your weird fantasy world of made up definitions nobody else uses or agrees with.
agree its the timing analysis trace of a Bitcoin to Monero swap tho 👍
you just wanna make it into something bigger to sell your sexy webpage, i get it.
thank you for calling my webpage sexy, that is not an adjective I expected anyone to use for it