I think it's undeniable at this point that the creation of Lightning Address has made the usage of custodial Lightning solutions increase -- or at least be more prominent. We see these stats everywhere of how many of Nostr Lightning Addresses are custodial, and how services like Nodeless and Geyser only work if you give them a Lightning Address, and that probably sounds like a lament to many people who thought Lightning would be this amazing network of self-hosted nodes that everybody runs, and is indeed sad.

Well, on the other hand the Lightning Address flow is clearly an improvement -- to most people -- over the cumbersome invoice flow. Since the early days of Lightning people had been complaining about the fact that there is no way to "just send money to an address". Even though I personally liked the invoice flow much more (especially if they had structured, signatures, clear descriptions and amounts, payment proofs and so on) the fact is that most people didn't and slowly invoices were losing their meaning entirely anyway.

This improvement in the payment flow, along with the open, easy and interoperable way that Lightning Addresses work, has opened space for new use cases that maybe wouldn't have existed otherwise -- like the services mentioned above, and others. So we can't really say this was all a bad thing.

We also shouldn't say it was a bad thing to have Lightning Addresses being invented at all, because if they hadn't been invented like they were, there is a high probably they would have been invented in other forms, probably much worse, that would involve private deals and proprietary integrations with ad-hoc APIs, SDKs and JavaScript widget buttons with iframes. I even remember some of these things starting to happen at the time Lightning Address was created, and we have more evidence of these things even after Lightning Address, like some "partnerships" here and there and the "UMA" protocol. So maybe Lightning Address was just the best possible protocol at the best time, and all its problems are not really its problems, but symptons of the problems of the Lightning Network (or maybe you wouldn't call these "problems", just natural properties, but doesn't matter).

The saddest realization of all this process, for me, was that Lightning payments are mostly used for tipping and not for commerce as I thought they would in the beginning (hence my love for the invoice flow). Specifically, LNURL-pay and its cool hidden features that went mostly unsupported, were all designed with the goal of enabling new use cases for commerce [in the real life](https://github.com/lnurl/awesome-lnurl), outside the web, and Lightning Addresses would have tied nicely into that vision too -- but that was all definitely an irredeemable failure.

I thought I had more things to say about this, but either I didn't or I forgot. The end.

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until bitcoin is common and actually accepted my merchants, you can’t have commerce on lightning 🤷

The collective average is what drives future products/services. Even the best products can fail if deployed at the wrong time.

Humans are driven by efficiency first, we are hardwired to achieve that. We evolved to produce as much while conserving as much energy as possible. (We do t really care if systems are inefficient thought, but not us).

Efficient workflows always win. The LN address is a very efficient workflow when compared to the invoices. And it mimics “handing cash” just like Bitcoin.

Invoices have their place as well, retail will pick that up at the right time. But we are not there yet.

Does BOLT 12 offers eventually solve/replace LNURLPay in your opinion?

bolt12 was invented in 2019 and hasn't succeeded to gain any adoption -- I would say it's because it is too complicated and designed as if by academics with not much concern for the practicality of the real world. I think it's more likely that Lightning will be abandoned before bolt12 becomes as pervasive as Lightning Address, not discounting the other possibility.

But no, it doesn't fix anything because normal people shouldn't be running dedicated nodes, it's too painful, and standalone mobile devices can't work with bolt12 since they are not always online and accessible, the workarounds to make them work involve centralized companion services ("LSPs") and Google push notifications.

Also it is absurdly hard for custodial providers to adopt bolt12. It requires unpacking the Lightning node daemon open, injecting the custodian's internal database of users in there, then reassembling the node back.

The problem of commerce over lightning isn’t a lightning problem, it’s a “bad money drives out good money” problem. With that said though, I bought prints from Argentina and a poster from the Midwest solely coordinated over Nostr and using lightning as the payment method. At a bare minimum, Lightning will very likely be an intermediate payment protocol between wallet, banks, custodians, and exchanges. Market solutions like Zeus and Phoenix are rapidly becoming more user friendly though, so it could go much further as well.

Gresham's law only applies when exchange rates are fixed.

You’re right, although there is definitely a psychological difference (that I’ve perceived) which makes people not want to spend Bitcoin versus spending dollars.

It could just be a network effect thing though, because as I said I have bought things with lighting, most people just don’t prefer that as payment right now.

I'm looking forward to self-custody wallets that offer a Lightning address. Just like the Zeus wallet will do.

GM

I think it isn't that these flows won't exist but will take more time to cultivate use cases for commerce. I think the general public just haven't caught up yet. Though, this post inspired me to build a LNURL pay e-commerce flow that I designed a while back.

For all those issue, i still wonder why people continue to dig in. The fondation of lightning are bad really bad.

And nobody test the security of those channels, is it possible to add those valuable infos to the cell phone network and know those stash of btc ?

That would be an opportunity that some well funded groups will use, or are using to id those btc adress.

Maybe people aren't realize, we are not many in bitcoin. It always the same people.

um. but there's so much activity going on LNBits.

Is LNBits' focus on commerce really not getting used enough, despite the rather quick paced developer activity over there?

um. but there's so much activity going on LNBits.

Is LNBits' focus on commerce really not getting used enough, despite the rather quick paced developer activity over there?

um. but there's so much activity going on LNBits.

Is LNBits' focus on commerce really not getting used enough, despite the rather quick paced developer activity over there?

um. but there's so much activity going on LNBits.

Is LNBits' focus on commerce really not getting used enough, despite the rather quick paced developer activity over there?

oops sorry relay trouble here