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Replying to

Hanshan

the difference is that I remember fiat is bullshit when I look at the USD denominated value of my assets.

or any prices for that matter.

the wealth isn't in that USD number.

the wealth is in the /utility/ of the assets.

which is why I am

and will remain

comfortably wealthy holding Monero.

which is not to say USD denominated "value" is a completely irrelevant metric.

but if we accept the underlying premise that fiat money is a broken yardstick,

that means accurate pricing is impossible.

and y'all look dumb and hypocritical obsessing about it all the time,

pretending it's an accurate measure of value when you want to make a point that fits your narrative .

Liberty Farmer 1y ago

You clearly have no idea what markets are. The value, aka price of something is set by markets. The number doesn't matter, because over time, all other numbers come into alignment via arbitrage of all currencies and assets

Utility means little. It is only what people are willing to take/pay/exchange for a good. That amount may change due to more or less utility however over time. Currently, that people are willing to trade $200 (ish) of a good or service for 1 Monero.

Same for Bitcoin, only $100,000.

You keep getting hung up on the fact that first is fake and bullshit. That isn't accurate however, as fiat dollars absolutely have value. They have value because people around the world trade in it, pay fmduties and levies, taxes, buy homes, et al.

The fact it loses this value over time against assets is the problem. A home costing 3x income is now 10x, etc ...

Free markets are always perfect. buyers and sellers. Somewhat free markets are mostly accurate in the short term, and adjust over the long term to the new market forces and correct.

Currently Bitcoin has a market value of over 500x that of monero. The markets have spoken so far.

This will only get larger over time however as has been the trend since 2018 when it peaked against Bitcoin.

You may value private transaction, as do I, however it is clear that the markets, AKA people, do not in any real way.

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Discussion

Hanshan 1y ago

quite a word salad just to say you don't understand what "value" means

and who is driving up the price of Bitcoin.

but please

read me some more of your Econ 101 textbook

Hanshan 1y ago

by which i mean

nice theories bro

but you have no idea what is actually happening in the real world.

I do agree however

that in an ideal setting

what you say *should be correct.

but all markets are manipulated.

and the underlying yardstick (the money)

is deployed unevenly to create situations of asymmetrical advantages.

Liberty Farmer 1y ago

there is no such thing as market manipulation long term. there are just markets.

I realize that my macro econ degree is probably a bit more advanced than yours, especially on NOSTR, but you'll get it eventually.

Liberty Farmer 1y ago

How are you not getting it?

it's not hard. frankly, it doesn't matter. I've got family and a large company to tend thabe a great day.

ede3d957... 1y ago

50 people is a large company these days? Do you accept Bitcoin?

Liberty Farmer 1y ago

yes, for several years.

Liberty Farmer 1y ago

the average private business has 23 employees I currently have more than double that. So yes

ede3d957... 1y ago

What you call free markets are state permissoned markets. Then the question becomes who controls the state and you pretty fast will encounter Mayer Amschel Rothschild, the prototype cantillionaire.

Now cryptocurreny is all about taking control back. Unfortunately Bitcoin gave up on that mission in the name of fiat NGU. Monero is Bitcoin 2.0. It is created and powered by the same people that made Bitcoin 1.0 a thing. Read the white paper again.

ede3d957... 1y ago

Guess what, Monero is the choice of the free (dark) market, where it matters.

Liberty Farmer 1y ago

Yes, I promise to use monero if I buy kiddie porn like you. creep...

done here

ede3d957... 1y ago

Any heated debate with self proclaimed Bitcoinesrs these days ends with name calling and rage quiting. Wonder why that is?

Liberty Farmer 1y ago

Heated? lol. not even close.

nobody 1y ago

unfollowed

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

This is stupid. Bitcoins original claim to fame and first use case was darknet markets. And this is exactly the same thing corporate media and pundits would lob at Bitcoin to try and discredit it.

Criminals use everything we do. You can't stop criminals from using things especially open permissionless systems.

Liberty Farmer 1y ago

And I don’t agree with the early dark web purchases eaither. Drugs, murder, child porn, and on and on. People are free to do as they want, I believe the darknet markets should exist. That doesn’t however make you immune from being called a creep. I also don’t believe in drugs or alcohol us. So I have no use for the dark web. Which has been and is funded by the dept of defense, fyi.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Well thats exactly what Bitcoin was used for (and still is to a degree). You don't know anyone in this thread. You're the only one who brought up child porn, "creep". Show us a popular darknet market that has murder or CP. You can't because they don't.

Yes, government created Tor. And the NSA oversees NIST which created the SHA-2 family that Bitcoin uses. Your point?

Liberty Farmer 1y ago

Ah yes, I remember drugs and child porn in the White paper....

But honestly I don't know who you are, don't really give a shit. Peace out, have a great day.

goatmeal 1y ago

if you're just gonna go around and lie constantly about people who like things you don't like, maybe you will enjoy this website better than nostr:

https://bsky.app/

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Waiting for you to show us that popular "CP" and "murder" darknet market. You have a cartoonish idea of darknets.

Ryu Santiago 1y ago

And silence, as completely expected.

mbl 1y ago

It's incorrect to say we are in a free market, we are not from a long time, from the time perpetual futures are on. Big financial players like a bank can artificially pump or dump the price of the underlying asset. Assuming Bitcoin spot market (real btc to buy and sell) is priced at 100k, on the perpetual futures (fake btc to buy and sell), you can make a gap like pump the future to 150k or dump to 80k for example, and so the arbitration process will play it's role and the real market will be pumped or dumped, because of nothing, that's an illusion. The spot market is driven by the future market.

Futures seems good, but when you can perpetually hold a fake position, that's a cheat code.

That means we are in a full controlled and faked market.

But you know, there is other way to fake the market like Tether...

"The value, aka price" --> Price Is What You Pay, Value Is What You Get.

Liberty Farmer 1y ago

Like the other Monero bros, you are confused.

The actual 'price' of something in dollars isn't relevant. only how much of something is needed to trade for goods and services.

Markets allways adapt to outside forces. Always.

Hence why Bitcoin is 100k in USD, but a million in Argentina Pesos(I think, didn't look it up). It isn't 10x more valuable because of the number. The amount of Bitcoin or Monero or whatever that someone will trade for.

mbl 1y ago

Bitcoin is today $100k, so will you sell your house valued at 500k for 1 BTC ? No, but for 5 isn't ?

How can you say "The actual 'price' of something in dollars isn't relevant" ?

Maybe you are talking about a Bitcoin standard ? Well, if this happens, it will be a different story, but it will never happen until Bitcoin will become fully controlled by the authority, so it will be USD 2.0 ^^

Liberty Farmer 1y ago

I will sell my house for what I and buyers in the market say I can.

I would have to see if I want to take 1, or 10 or 50 Bitcoin

The same goes for gold, euros, yen, Yuan, ammo, guns, whatever I am selling my house in.

With a global us dollar standard you certainly may want to use that 'price' in assisting you, and people often do. But thsy is because we have been trained to think in dollar terms.

But markets don't have standards. My neighbor traded a horse a a donkey for tractor and some silver, and the deal was done

He didn't go look up the value of his horse and donkey in dollars, assess his feeding and boarding costs, etc .. he then didn't go through the tractor auctions and fetch a price. They offered, added some silvernto entice, and made a deal.

Recently I paid Bitcoin for some gunsmithing. I didnt even look up or ask his rates. I just offered and he accepted. Now he may have valued them in dollars, I can't say.

Or for some reason if you only want car feces in returns for instance, there is no active market for that. It would be purely up to you and the buyer to determine their values. a free and fair market.

But you are correct of course that most people think of price in dollars on high demand and traded assets. This will and has changed.

mbl 1y ago

I understand what you are saying, but there is a standard like it has ever be from centuries, today it's dollar, maybe tomorrow it will be yuan or gold or bitcoin, it's better for a stable economy, especially when it's a globalized one. Bitcoin as a standard seems to be a bad idea anyway, because after all it's a computer program, which can be hacked or something like that, Gold is probably the better option, what do you think ?