Why do you assume Jesus Christ cannot be verified as God? Because you haven't done the work.
In The Case For Christ, a former atheist investigates Jesus's divinity through interviews with experts, examining scientific, philosophical, and historical evidence.
There are dozens of books like this, but you have to put in the hours to question your NPC assumptions.
#ToChristAlome
https://blossom.primal.net/4d7fdade49f8bcd7c90c0f2e47fc4366cc34dc298777acf3d4707f3e76825de9.webp
In the simplest terms, salvation by faith is a “trust me bro” situation. No two ways around it. I am highlighting the cognitive compartmentalisation that has to happen in order to have “treasure” both here on earth and in heaven.
Good luck.
My faith is not “trust me bro”. It’s reasoned based on the past, what is examinable, known, and on probabilities of the future. You can just dismiss it if you want, or you can examine it like the people who wrote the books above. No compartmentalization needed.
Maybe I have misunderstood the scriptures about the salvation experience. I see it as an act of faith in a sacrifice made on my behalf. I see this as a “trust” act. Have I got that wrong? (Serious question).
I think you have it right but at his point in history you can trust Christianity because of what you can verify. In bitcoin, I trust the balance in my wallet because my node has verified all those past transactions. I have faith that I’ll be able to spend them in the future. In my Christian faith I trust that Christ’s sacrifice is sufficient verified by the historical record of the scriptures and and the testimony of my predecessors. That historical record and the accuracy of the scriptures is what people like Lee Strobel looked into as a sceptic who changed his mind resulting in his book. Of course they’re not exactly the same, but I don’t consider my Christian faith “trust me bro” in the sense that I believe simply cause somebody said I should. I’ve spent many more hours examining my faith than I have bitcoin and I’ve spent a LOT on bitcoin. If I misunderstood your perspective I apologize I appreciate the conversation.
So I think we are not quite on the same page. I hear what you are saying re the work you have put in to research, examine, analyse and mull over a chain of previous thinkers and writers as well as the scriptures. I would put this work into the “bucket” of assurance. These are the things that you have done to attempt to make sense of what you have thought and experienced through your journey. What I am pointing to is that a Christian lacks an independent process to verify the future event of salvation while they are still living on earth. It’s a trust/faith situation until physical death. I am suggesting that assurances are not the same as verification. That is where the “trust me bro” sentiment came from. Maybe I am missing something?
Yes, and unfortunately that kind of “cheap grace” version of Christianity became common in the last century, and has turned away a lot of honest truth seekers, especially young men. It was certainly promoted though, but so was Keynesian economics and a gender spectrum.
I think the new atheist critiques were apt to reject such silly versions of Christianity, the problem of course is that’s not historic Christianity but a modern secular version.
The deeper issue is that secularism is producing nothing but chaos and nihilism, and its core presuppositions are incompatible with Christianity. And of course our entire civilization and morality (such as universal human rights) is built on Christian presuppositions (this points back to Nietzsche’s famous death of God criticism, accurately predicting the atrocities of the 20th century)
Interesting comments but I don’t think they are related to my initial post. I made a comparison between “verify don’t trust” and “trust can’t verify.” I appreciate that there is a wide and varied landscape of Christian theological development and evolution that has created a variety of Christian expression. There will be champions of many different theological systems all wanting to voice their particular views. I am wanting to focus in on the lack of independent verification a Christian has with respect to their “heavenly treasure” vs the Christian bitcoiners ability to independently verify their “earthly treasure.” As far as I can tell there is no verification mechanism available to a Christian re the rewards of exercising their faith. In that sense it is a “trust me bro” situation. I would be grateful if you could show me what I am not seeing here. 😀
Well, the answer is far deeper, think depth rather than the breadth you are describing.
You’re presuming you have access to truth, and that’s because you are coming from a culture that arose from a Christian ethos.
That culture is however being “deconstructed” before your eyes, and if you ask a philosopher at any university today, they’ll explain that there is no objective truth, you can’t really know anything, what is truth? Some might say “my truth” as if it’s relative. But they also can’t answer what a woman is… But if instead you have “faith” that there is objective truth (the truth), dive deep into that and see where it takes you.
What you were originally asking is verification for salvation, which is not a math problem, it’s a relationship with Christ. It’s like asking for verification that you truly love your wife. It’s not math, but it can be verified by anyone taking the time to learn about the relationship and carefully discern the fruits of that relationship.
The “trust me bro” version of salvation is wrong, not biblical, and the truth is a much deeper (and rewarding) question that is very much worth pursuing.
You lost me at Interviews with experts.
Great book. Evidential style of apologetics, like Josh McDowell. We should also consider the Presuppositional apologetic, as it takes into account that fallen men purposefully suppress the truth in their unrighteousness. No amount of evidence will convince those that refuse to believe, requires an act of the Spirit. Still, for those that do believe, books like this can be a great help in articulating your belief.
Dominion by Tom Holland is another good one.
If you’re into philosophy I’d recommend Nihilism by Eugene Rose (who later became an orthodox monk, Fr. Seraphim Rose). It’s incredibly dense (more so than even Nietzsche) and manages to both articulate and dispel Nietzsche’s entire philosophy, with beautiful parallels to Dostoyevsky.
A deep dive into history, including the history of science, or into philosophy will all point you back inevitably to the person and divinity of Christ.
It’s like an orange pill, except it goes infinitely deep and reveals truth at the most fundamental level.
Nihilism is a legendary book.
Added Dominion to cart.
Thanks, Sire Christopher.
My favorite for validating Christ.
Amen. These midwit Reddit-tier atheist takes are cringy. As you said, do the work and verification is possible.
Personally, I wasn't a fan of the interview format in The Case For Christ, but Cold-Case Christianity got me over the line.
