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One rule that any method has to comply with is that it has to maximize its exposure to bitcoin, that is, coins can hardly spend minutes in Monero for example because otherwise you expose yourself to the loss of purchasing power, which is what bitcoin was created for, that is why I consider that in itself Monero is an oxymoron to the founding principles of bitcoin, Monero does not work to protect you from Fiat currency devaluation, it does not even beat inflation.

So please don't you Monero supporters come here and say just use Monero and Monero is what Bitcoin should have been because Monero has not achieved any of the main goals of Bitcoin.

For me Monero is just a privacy tool.

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Discussion

MonkeyRidesBike 1y ago

Monero is cool but not as long term storage, and a CPU infrastructure can be overtaken note easily than ASIC

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago

🎯

brito 1y ago

Only chineses farms and rich yuppies are mining bitcoin. There are more odds that those agree on changing the blockchain than millions of decentralized miners across the globe on their personal laptops.

S!ayer 1y ago

lol

Sovereign Being 1y ago

Realistically, it takes years for Bitcoin to protect purchasing power, not minutes or days. People who bought Bitcoin at $66k in 2021 haven't protected their purchasing power at all over a 3 year period.

It is a two way street. Monero doesn't fix the money issue, but it does address privacy, censorship and cheap transactions.

Bitcoin fixes money, but presently has no working solution that can scale and address private and cheap transactions.

Any relegation of these requirements to fiat standards defeats the purpose. Monero is no more complicated than Bitcoin.

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago

What I wanted to say is that the problem is that Bitcoin makes rises in just 9 days a year, if it so happens that one day of those days you are in Monero, then you are much poorer.

Hanshan 1y ago

Poorer in terms of what?

You're measuring in fiat, something that you say is bullshit half the time and only bring out to rely on when you want to shit on Monero and other assets.

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago

Monero loses purchasing power relative to bitcoin, do what you want, it's not my problem, don't come here to convince me of your bullshit 😂.

Hanshan 1y ago

*as measured in USD.

which is a bullshit measurement.

congratulations you're a fiat maxi.

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago

You're retarded 😂

Hanshan 1y ago

wtf do you think "purchasing power" is measured in moron?

except the unit of account?

OceanSlim 1y ago

Bitcoin is the unit of account. This is why you're still a shitcoiner. You're the fiat maxi... Using USD as your unit of account still.

Hanshan 1y ago

nice story bro

you don't personally change the UOA because you divide by 69K.

That really is retarded.

The UOA is what *prices are set in*, which is USD.

for example,

(ETH/USD)÷(BTC/USD)

is a USD denominated chart

get it straight.

OceanSlim 1y ago

You can set prices in BTC and I do. You can set prices in Monero too but that's a bad reality you can't seem to handle.

OceanSlim 1y ago

If you just want to measure USD too. You can do that with any fiat. The point is it's all going down against BTC. You are obsessed with USD. You don't need it to measure other currencies against each other.

Alex 1y ago

Let’s measure in how many steaks you can buy 😂

Hanshan 1y ago

exactly

durrr

the unit of account is ribeyes because i did division

durrr

Alex 1y ago

Cope harder 😂

falsefaucet 1y ago

You choose the denominator then. Do you want BTC as the denominator. Here ya go. We both agree that's a way better measuring stick than fiat.

I stand by my opinion, monero are for those to be think using Bitcoin privately is impossible/ too hard OR value privacy over auditability

Just don't act like it's trending down in only fiat

Hanshan 1y ago

jfc you too?

again.

that is a fiat denominated chart.

it is a graph of the function

(XMR/USD)÷(BTC/USD)

there are no BTC denominated charts while USD is the unit of account because *that's what prices are*

everybody in the world is using USD as a uoa but bitcoiners think they can change it by doing division lol

falsefaucet 1y ago

Please enlighten me in how to evaluate the appreciation of an asset then.

Like I'm no mathematician but the denominator for both are depreciating at the same rate considering it's the same.

Should I value it in hydrogen molecules?

Hanshan 1y ago

the denominator is USD *price* homie

its not the same.

as the USD denominated price of an asset changes

the trading pairs fluctuate accordingly.

falsefaucet 1y ago

I see what your saying hang on then.

Sovereign Being 1y ago

From my perspective, you would be using Monero as a means of transacting, converting it from Bitcoin as needed. I really don't see why the two can't coexist since Bitcoin obviously isn't fulfilling some of the things I believe it should be.

Privacy coins not existing at all wouldn't be a good thing (to me) if the same doesn't exist on Bitcoin.

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago

This is precisely the use of Monero that I have analyzed, but it is neither economical nor practical, so I am not convinced by it or any of the other methods I have mentioned.

brito 1y ago

You can go to a casino and get a profit in 9 days out of a year.

Monero isn't a casino coin. It is a coin that assures your privacy. My stack never goes down in value because 1 Monero = 1 Monero.

If you want to speculate in coins, learn about forex instead of confusing that with cryptography.

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago

😂 then you don't understand anything about finance, Monero is just a privacy tool, Bitcoin is digital gold, stay poor

Deleted Account 1y ago

Monero said something on Reddit about:

We’re in a war bros

Never read it but it popped up on my screen.

📺 Me: 🤔 They just now seeing that. All good. 😊

inpc 1y ago

Or a bros war?

Deleted Account 1y ago

Doesn’t matter to me. Ima #bitcoin only Bee 🐝

Information warfare is where I’ll choose to work now. Even if cybersecurity isn’t my specialty. Boots on ground was. Constant learning is good. #AI is here too …

brito 1y ago

Not me, already rich enough to retire since my 30s. Was an early bitcoiner in 2009 and continued mining afterwards in Monero until now.

You keep spouting stuff like a federal agent would argue and try to ignore the obvious.

Monero will continue increasing in price. Anyone stacking today will still see it growing 2x, 3x, 6x without effort.

If you didn't understood bitcoin in 2009, you won't understand monero today.

Keep larping, you sound more like a paid agitator that anything else.

Justin Trudeau 1y ago

Bagholder.

S!ayer 1y ago

"Monero will continue increasing in price"

tail emission inflation though? there is no cap to monero, but it will self regulate a price based on demand and supply for the FX.

So it can "continue increasing in price" but that's just inflation, which is good.

brito 1y ago

You won't care about these things since you use casino coins mined in chinese farms, however, in private coins there is a focus to keep rewarding the network maintenance done by tens of thousand people at home with their personal laptops.

It will take 50 years to increase 50% of the coins in circulation.

50 years.

I'll repeat again: 50 years.

Crypto isn't around since 25 years and you are FUD'ing about 50% circulation increase in about 50 years from today as if that is a good argument to adopt fedcoins instead of cryptocurrencies worthy of that name.

S!ayer 1y ago

relax

brito 1y ago

Not my friend, just hanging around the same BBS that time. Internet was smaller, got even smaller to those talking about shady tech.

Authorities, criminals, crypto academics share the same tech circles.

In 2009 there was nothing. No mining pools, no exchanges, nothing to use "bitcoin". Just solo mining and a lot of CPU burn, sure I've done it. Was a fun concept, but was far more profitable to write daytrade bots and skim stock exchanges in those days.

Crypto coinage didn't appear overnight out of thin air at some public forum or mailing lists. We'd be testing and breaking whatever others would post there.

S!ayer 1y ago

bro bitcoin is not digital gold, who lied to you?

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago

Bitcoin is digital gold and bitcoin is money, bitcoin is what gold was 2000 years ago.

S!ayer 1y ago

At what point in the white paper is it referred to as a gold?

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago

https://primal.net/e/note1z5q0z3jafw36paxhl4h978fq5pg96qus5gnjpr3qsz08aejffv2qcwnmmd

S!ayer 1y ago

Ah yes,

"A store of value"

"Gold"

"I don't trust economics I make my own shit up"

Clearly, and it shows. I'm not going to correct this thinking.

Go read the whitepaper again, because you're missing the point.

We don't need digital gold when we have gold already.

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago

If you don't understand an analogy it's not my problem, you're a troll and you know it.

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago

However use bitcoin as you prefer, neither I am going to convince you nor you are going to convince me, do not waste your time.

Satoshi created bitcoin and made a point of saying it on bitcointalk and in his emails to protect us from monetary devaulation, which is a store of value, and on the other hand he also created it to be uncensored money.

If you don't accept the duality it's not my problem, I use it for both.

If I want to call it digital gold I call it digital gold, because gold was used as a store of value and money.

And here ends this stupidly meaningless discussion of what the white paper says or does not say.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

I think everything you say is reasonable long-term if historical trends continue...

But as for the exposing yourself to loss on the scale of minutes comment is kind of silly. I don't think short term is the same. For example there are years, months, weeks, and days where Monero outperforms Bitcoin. Most of 2020 and all of the year of 2022 you would have made money if you swapped into Monero (it shows this in your own chart). The last 5 months straight (before September) Monero outperformed Bitcoin this year.

For swapping short term it is anyones guess which will do better. Sometimes you will be up, sometimes down. It pretty much cancels out on short time scales.

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago

Bitcoin makes all its upward movements in just 9 days a year, it is statistically proven, even less days, if one of those days you are in Monero you have screwed it.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

If you mostly save with Bitcoin and have a small stash of Monero that you are constantly using up and replenishing periodically, your exposure when this happens is fairly negligible

I'm not telling you to do this. I'm just saying it really is not a big deal in my experience.

I experiment with the tools you mentioned too like ecash, lightning, and coinjoins. Each one has it's own advantages and downsides. I like the simplicity yet strong privacy of Monero personally and that is what I use the most for transactions.

Eluc 1y ago

Can we inplement the privacy features of Monero in BTC (on main chain or layer 2 like Lightning or others) and have the best of both world?

Cyph3rp9nk 1y ago

The short answer is that at the moment there is no way to do it.

The long answer is that the only way to do it at the moment is a sidechain like liquid, liquid uses CT as a monero, although it does not use ring signatures because these are one of the culprits that can create hidden inflation, if hidden inflation is created then 1 L-BTC will no longer be equal to 1 BTC and the sidechain loses all credibility.

Eluc 1y ago

For sure that's the main issues of fully private coin, you cannot control the supply, especially when it's on second layer or worst, on centralized exchanges.

S!ayer 1y ago

yes, let me just spin up a trusted third party quick

Azz 1y ago

The only thing that matters is the demand for use as money. Everything else is speculation. Bitcoin has the network effect and the biggest onramps. Monero has had onramps shut down and faces regulatory pressure.

No one wants others to know exactly how much money they have. Its a liability because it allows enemies to calculate the cost of overcoming you. Even (especially) Blackrock will demand privacy eventually.

The Bitcoin price probably assumes that it will achieve an acceptable level of privacy eventually. If it doesn't then it will fail as money.

frphank 1y ago

Monero fails at money just like Bitcoin does. You can't buy anything for either.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

You don't need permissionless money for things you already have permission to buy

shortwavesurfer2009 1y ago

But you should use permissionless money to buy things you have permission to buy if at all possible just to show that you don't want permissioned money.

Saberhagen The Nameless 1y ago

Sure, I'm just saying the "need" isn't there on white markets in general which is why hardly anyone uses it there aside from use true believers

Much less friction to use fiat money to do things you are allowed to do anyway (faster, cheaper, convenient, no legal ambiguity, larger network effect, etc)

It's only when you want to do something that isn't allowed, possible, or places great burden on you, within the fiat system, that Bitcoin/Monero/Crypto suddenly stand out