Nostr Web Client

Here is what a monero transaction looks like:

https://monero.hashvault.pro/explorer/search?value=6341ee33e2029f85e3a5fc62fb83efedbef6e72b24412c1e49003ef0383daac2

You can see a list of people who might have sent the transaction on the left under "ring members" -- one of them did it!

Now...can anyone show me a lightning transaction?

Anyone?

I'm waiting...

Saberhagen The Nameless 11mo ago 💬 1

You're comparing on-chain vs L2. Lightning is built on a transparent blockchain so still leaks data even if you do everything perfect.

Also, since most lightning users are custodial, they might be private to the general public, but they are naively surveillable by the custodians and any government that forces them to record that information and could do it covertly with a gag order. Basically the same trade-off as a VPN. You're just shifting who can invade your privacy for most Lightning users.

When Monero upgrades to FCMP I'm curious would you use it? Also would you use Monero when it has an L2? Since both things would alleviate your problems with it in regards to private transactions.

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Discussion

sister_sam 11mo ago

Worse some of the most convenient lightning hubs could be run by the government.

Elephant in the root 11mo ago 💬 2

That on chain data it supposedly leaks is useless. Monero is equally bad in terms of who can spy because in practice most people reveal view keys.

I'd consider Monero if it was pegged to btc and had an L2.

Saberhagen The Nameless 11mo ago

If on-chain data is useless why are best practices before opening and after closing channels to coinjoin? Although better than purely transacting on Bitcoins blockchain, that is an obvious drawback of building a privacy layer on a transparent blockchain. That's one of it's weak links. For best possible privacy you would build a privacy L2 on an encrypted blockchain.

Not sure what you're implying with the view keys thing

Elephant in the root 11mo ago 💬 2

It's not best practice universally. E.g. if you got your coins completely anonymously CJ before LN channel open is useless. Similarly, if you're going to open another channel with the closed UTXO CJ won't help you much. The key thing here is you could transact billions in Bitcoin inside $1000 channel and after you close it noone would know.

View keys in Monero allow anyone posessing them to see the entire transaction history. Popular Monero wallets used by random people simply leak them to centralized server.

Saberhagen The Nameless 11mo ago

Anything I've ever read or listened to go over basics of privacy on Lightning always recommends CJing before opening channels. And presumably if you're running your own LN node, the most private way to use Lightning, you would be doing that.

I feel like all this is moot though because thats not how the vast majority use it they're all on custodians like WoS that see everything.

The view key thing already assumes you're protecting those keys the same way you would protect your xpubs or private keys for Bitcoin/Lightning. Unless you think that applies to those as well for any wallet and crypto?

What popular wallets are leaking view keys?

The most popular wallets are all non-custodial and your wallet syncs the chain (Cake, Monerujo, Stack, Feather, CLI/GUI, etc)

Even if using someone elses node they can't see your view keys so no clue what you're talking about

Node Runner 11mo ago 💬 2

If best practice is to coin join before opening a channel, and after closing your channel, what about things like boltz.exchange swapping out btc to and from your channel?

Saberhagen The Nameless 11mo ago

Are you really asking me or do you know the answer? I don't know but I'm interested what the answer is

Node Runner 11mo ago

I really don't know, but it seems like payjoin might be a better solution if your coins are kyc'd. Coinjoins don't give you plausible deniability.