Here is what a monero transaction looks like:
You can see a list of people who might have sent the transaction on the left under "ring members" -- one of them did it!
Now...can anyone show me a lightning transaction?
Anyone?
I'm waiting...
Discussion
Seems like an apples to oranges comparison, but okay. Discounts the fact that 95% of lightning use is custodial... But okay
Your lightning address is literally coinos.io
Try responding without memes or I'll start calling you darthcoin.
It's unclear what your critique is. I run a LN node... What exactly is your argument?
Do your best to use LN in a self custodial way and maintain your privacy. By all means. But again, please don't argue onchain Bitcoin is more private than onchain monero...
I've used LN long enough to lose tons of sats trying to work with something that's a fair headache at times... You seem like an ostrich about that.
I don't trust or respect people that can't see LN's drawbacks or shortcomings for self custodial use.
> But again, please don't argue onchain Bitcoin is more private than onchain monero...
I don't. Onchain bitcoin is less private than onchain monero...unless you use coinjoin + stealth addresses, in which case, I think it's about the same, though sometimes better (due to coinjoins sometimes having larger anonymity sets).
If anything coinjoins are worse. They don't hide amounts. Since amounts are visible it leaves you more open additional heuristics that can reduce/undo obfuscation.
Some coinjoins may have a larger anonymity set for a single coinjoin, but I doubt that is true over time and over multiple transactions since they are optional. Very few transactions are coinjoins and the few that do are likely not for every spend. Additionally your anon set shrinks over time as those prior coinjoin peers make mistakes or send those funds to be KYC'd by exchanges and there is nothing you can really do about that.
Strong default privacy is important.
You are conflating anonymity with privacy.
Onchain bitcoin is NEVER private, as amounts + sender + receiver are always recorded onchain.
It can be pseudonymous (you don't know who the addresses belong to) at best, but never anonymous, as you can always see the addresses.
And over time, because of this, the pseudonimity tends to turn into certainty.
What are you going to say by the end of the year when FCMPs++ are activated, Monero has zcash-style anonymity of 1 in 100 million AND FCMPs++ allows tx chaining which will enable Lightning-like L2s? will Monero be simply superior by then, or will you just join the other maxis and say "monero bad because price go down"?
I am honestly curious what will you think of it and how will bitcoin remain superior for you
Everytime super strawman posts about Monero, I become more convinced of its viability. 🤣 I have to assume he is purposely reverse evangelizing at this point. Everytime someone makes a valid point, he rewards them with an ad hominem meme, and everyone who asks a valid question gets a monero sales pitch.
He can't handle to have a response for your question 😅🤣
Are you there nostr:nprofile1qqszrqlfgavys8g0zf8mmy79dn92ghn723wwawx49py0nqjn7jtmjagpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchszyrhwden5te0dehhxarj9ekk7mf0qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uynmh4h?
What you have to say about FCMPs? 👀
Some times is better to not talk when you haven't any arguments 👀
I'm a huge fan of the FCMP idea and I look forward to seeing them implemented
It will make the fight much more fair
Will that require yet another hardfork on monero?
Yep. And Bitcoin still remains the same surveillable blockchain it was 15 years ago.
Yes skipper, that means the majority of all node runners will voluntarily upgrade their nodes to get the latest features that benefit them and improve the protocol
Hard forks are not a moment for a major community political mental breakdown in more focused projects.
No one holds their life savings on that hotpotato (due unlimited total supply & non-auditable current supply) so it makes sense that you guys don't care about hardforking every few months.
Gold has an unlimited total supply and is similarly non-auditable. We will never know how much gold exists for certain the way we do bitcoin, and yet gold has been a SOV for centuries.
I know you know all this already, because others have tried to communicate these facts to you for a year if not two on Nostr.
Haven't heard of this so looking into FCMPs++ at the moment, seems pretty epic so far
I use the best tool for the job based on my needs for any given transaction. If want to cloak my transaction and my identity as much as possible, I use Monero. If I don't care about ironclad privacy and need to transfer a large amount, I use on-chain BTC. For day to day transactions that don't have a high privacy requirement, I use Lightning. I think they all have their uses, it just depends on your specific requirements which one is best suited.
You're comparing on-chain vs L2. Lightning is built on a transparent blockchain so still leaks data even if you do everything perfect.
Also, since most lightning users are custodial, they might be private to the general public, but they are naively surveillable by the custodians and any government that forces them to record that information and could do it covertly with a gag order. Basically the same trade-off as a VPN. You're just shifting who can invade your privacy for most Lightning users.
When Monero upgrades to FCMP I'm curious would you use it? Also would you use Monero when it has an L2? Since both things would alleviate your problems with it in regards to private transactions.
Worse some of the most convenient lightning hubs could be run by the government.
That on chain data it supposedly leaks is useless. Monero is equally bad in terms of who can spy because in practice most people reveal view keys.
I'd consider Monero if it was pegged to btc and had an L2.
If on-chain data is useless why are best practices before opening and after closing channels to coinjoin? Although better than purely transacting on Bitcoins blockchain, that is an obvious drawback of building a privacy layer on a transparent blockchain. That's one of it's weak links. For best possible privacy you would build a privacy L2 on an encrypted blockchain.
Not sure what you're implying with the view keys thing
It's not best practice universally. E.g. if you got your coins completely anonymously CJ before LN channel open is useless. Similarly, if you're going to open another channel with the closed UTXO CJ won't help you much. The key thing here is you could transact billions in Bitcoin inside $1000 channel and after you close it noone would know.
View keys in Monero allow anyone posessing them to see the entire transaction history. Popular Monero wallets used by random people simply leak them to centralized server.
Anything I've ever read or listened to go over basics of privacy on Lightning always recommends CJing before opening channels. And presumably if you're running your own LN node, the most private way to use Lightning, you would be doing that.
I feel like all this is moot though because thats not how the vast majority use it they're all on custodians like WoS that see everything.
The view key thing already assumes you're protecting those keys the same way you would protect your xpubs or private keys for Bitcoin/Lightning. Unless you think that applies to those as well for any wallet and crypto?
What popular wallets are leaking view keys?
The most popular wallets are all non-custodial and your wallet syncs the chain (Cake, Monerujo, Stack, Feather, CLI/GUI, etc)
Even if using someone elses node they can't see your view keys so no clue what you're talking about
If best practice is to coin join before opening a channel, and after closing your channel, what about things like boltz.exchange swapping out btc to and from your channel?