Nostr Web Client

Sovereign Matt 2y ago 💬 54

Some people think I am btc maxi. I am not a maxi yet.

When btc can be as private as cash via end-2-end encrypted transactions then I will be a maxi.

I support bitcoin the most because it’s the most decentralised, verifiable the blockchain, 21 million cap and it’s proof of work algorithm is a mind blowing genius solution.

But having your friends, family, employers or bad actors being able to see your entire financial history when they get access to your public address using chainanalysis software is very concerning to me.

I am big fan of any potential BIPs that could allow for end2end encrypted btc like BIP-300 drivechains or some kind of soft fork that would allow for Zero Knowledge or Validity roll ups on bitcoin.

Resource links for those interested to learn more:

https://layertwolabs.com/

https://bitcoinrollups.org/

If bitcoin never achieves true privacy then maybe there is reason for me to look into privacy coins just incase because I really don’t trust the state knowing my entire my financial history.

I’m no computer science expert so maybe it’s possible to have complete privacy with lightning but atm it seems like wishful thinking. Love to be educated or proven wrong.

Regardless always be thankful for bitcoin which has taken me where I am today.

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Discussion

cryptowolf 2y ago

I don't think this will ever happen. It is not bitcoins goal or stated in the white paper.

Privacy / Secrecy are up the user and how the user sets up their devices. It can be made as private as cash if you use the right tools and setups.

Agreed but you shouldn't have to use any tools. One slip up and you can undo all your previous privacy gains. Save in Bitcoin, spend in Monero. It's a pretty simple life under their method.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

I am following you for some privacy content. I want to learn more. Thanks for your comment.

Taoist Bitcoiner 2y ago

Spending off chain with LN is plenty private for almost all use cases, most data leaked is on the receiving side. It isn't difficult to manage this simply through segregation and compartmentalization, of everything, not just your transactions and coin of choice. More data is exposed through your phones, IP addresses, browsers, etc. than is exposed with off chain transactions. Spending from a phone registered in your name, an IP service paid with by a CC, while in the home address registered ass your legal address makes your privacy with even Monero an illusion.

In the end, ONLY good Op Sec, treating secrecy as secuity in ALL things can lead to Anonymity, which matters more than data privacy. It is Control, not Title that matters, these practices must be carried over into the paper and physical realms too. Smart money use registered LLC, Corporate, and Trustee agents as special purpose vehicles for Titling real assets, the same as smart Bitcoiners do with Blue Wallet, Sparrow, and Cold Card.

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

LN is overwhelmingly used in a non-private way. Same non-default privacy tediousness of Bitcoin (meaning majority will not use it privately. Defaults matter.). It's possible to have semi-private unannounced channels by sacrificing useability.

Your list of attack surfaces is kind of a moot point because Bitcoin has all that against it *ON TOP OF* being a public blockchain. Monero is not a privacy panacea, but it makes privacy possible and much more simple and accessible. And IP address is automatically protected with Dandelion++ when using Monero so the IP thing isn't even true.

The most you can hope for on Bitcoin is to remain anonymous, but your actions are always public. Obfuscation is not privacy. Nothing is hidden. That data can be saved and combined with future data and novel techniques to deobfuscate and eventually use that data to deanonymise. Both anonymity *and* privacy matter and can be weaponized to unconver the other.

CrimeDad 2y ago

If you really want private transactions with bitcoin there's always sneakernet. They figured out a clever way to do it at opendime.com.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Never heard of this. Anything else I should know before I look into it?

CrimeDad 2y ago

No. You should just look into it.

This is a step backwards. Ooendimes are great for gifts and satscards also for a cheaper alternative but you've got to sweep those funds sometime and when you do you have to isolate those UTXOs as you are faced with the same privacy issues are before.

This is why bitcoin is a near perfect SoV and a far from perfect MoE.

CrimeDad 2y ago

Or you could just spend the loaded opendimes/satscards like old fashioned paper money. I guess there's a lack of privacy insofar as having to meet whomever you're transacting with face to face, but at least there's no record of the transaction.

It's really the cost. All my ooendimes are curios and I collect them and the satcards for the art element. Opendimes is around $15 iirc?

This is why #monero just works.

Dynamic block sizing so tx fees are always a few picos at most. As long as you have some churn in your wallet, you are 2min confirmation and then you're done.

Finally I do a heap of research and work on the DNMs and there isn't a single market in 2023 that accepts bitcoin anymore. It's a fully #monero payment environment out there in the digital wild west and that's pretty telling.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Should be easy as using cash. If we going to declare btc better money then it should be at least private and easy to use as cash imo.

IMO it will never be private and will never rival cash. I stack coins everyday but always as a store of value. Lightning has its uses such as zaps and that's crazy fun but if I pay for anything that I need privacy the my go to is #monero every time.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

I am going to keep complaining maybe something will happen.

CrimeDad 2y ago

Yes, they are expensive enough that they're just novelties, but the concept is correct.

cryptowolf 2y ago

Actually page 6 section 10 of the Bitcoin white paper does talk about Privacy:

"The traditional banking model achieves a level of privacy by limiting access to information to the

parties involved and the trusted third party. The necessity to announce all transactions publicly

precludes this method, but privacy can still be maintained by breaking the flow of information in

another place: by keeping public keys anonymous. The public can see that someone is sending

an amount to someone else, but without information linking the transaction to anyone. This is

similar to the level of information released by stock exchanges, where the time and size of

individual trades, the "tape", is made public, but without telling who the parties were."

The way I interpret this, if you always use your node to connect to the network, and you have not identified yourself during any transactions, then there is zero knowledge of your identity. Adding VPN and/or Tor to the mix is not even necessary if you only connect to your own node from your wallet.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

But as soon as you do business with someone. That someone can reveal your public address?

cryptowolf 2y ago

1 wallet for Savings

1 wallet for transactions

only send full UTXOs in order to break blockchain heuristics

Here is a great article on the topic from my favourite wallet Sparrow Wallet: https://sparrowwallet.com/docs/spending-privately.html

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

This is kinda my point. This seems like a lot of work to figure out for the non tech savy person.

It should be as private and easy to use as cash imo.

I may be persuaded but atm i need to learn more about it.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Thanks for commenting with the links. Will do some reading.

cryptowolf 2y ago

no problem. only good intentions here and trying to promote my point that Bitcoin is private. its us who make it not private lol

Nostr is anonymous too, unless you paste your npub somewhere where its associated to your real identity or dont protect your ip address.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Yeh pseudo anonymous.

I am only an anon because I do not want to reveal my identity and btc bags to people I transact with.

Am sure some very nosey onchain analyst has worked out my stack already lol.

I would love to just be myself online. But I risk revealing my stack so I don’t.

cryptowolf 2y ago

Maybe. If you do everything by the book, even the nosey on-chain analysist cant figure out shit about you.

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

Not trying to be contentious, but Bitcoin can't be private it's a public blockchain viewable by the world. Only psuedonymous (user unknown, actions known) if bought and transacting p2p/NoKYC.

You can coinjoin to make your actions probabilistic, but that is obfuscation, not privacy (all information is known, data is "muddied", but not hidden). Similar to leaking metadata. Can be saved and potentially used with future data to deanonymize the user or deobfuscate the data.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Yeh that’s what I thought. But you could have a Monero style trustless sidechain if btc would implement bip 300.

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

Yes agree, it is possible, and if bip 300 goes thru I'm sure will happen. But it will have it's own unique trade offs that won't be the same as Monero's (both good and bad).

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

I am seeing lot of chat on twitter between btc core devs debating it. I think it’s in the realm of possibility that it gets pushed forward.

cryptowolf 2y ago 💬 2

its one thing if the devs do it or not, a whole other thing if node operators follow or not. There could be a temporary chain split, and the stronger one will win out and be called Bitcoin.

cryptowolf 2y ago

Im sorry I used the wrong word. Private was the wrong word. Anonymous is what I should have wrote. Bitcoin is anonymous by default. It is us who de-anonymyze ourselves through our careless usage of the internet.

I don't see any major downside to hedging that sort of risk in #monero. In extreme times, the flight to personal safety lies in contrarianism, not conformity.

I stack equal units of #xmr as I do #btc due to the former being such a small percentage allocation of capital. Yes, there are tradeoffs, now it's not a shitcoin.

Bitcoin will likely never have solid privacy and most of the ardent bitcoin zealots that I know use Monero even though they'd never publically admit it.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

I never owned Monero mainly because I have no idea where you go to trade it lol. But I have seen a lot of John macabre videos where he talks about it as alternative. I really hope to btc allow for this kinda privacy one day.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

*John Macafee

McAfee 💪

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Haha yeh that.

I couldn’t watch you break down any further. Had to step in.

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Appreciate you QW! Not all heroes wear capes 🦸‍♂️!

https://tradeogre.com/exchange/XMR-BTC if you like an order book CEX

https://www.majesticbank.sc/user/login

If you like a swap serive with onion option.

Both are non KYC 🔥

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

Open source wallets:

https://www.monerujo.io/ (Android only)

https://stackwallet.com/ (Bitcoin/Monero only version available - Android, iOS)

https://cakewallet.com/ (Monero only version available - Desktop, Android, iOS)

https://featherwallet.org/ (Desktop only)

https://www.getmonero.org/downloads/ (Desktop only)

Fiat -> Monero:

https://localmonero.co/ (noKYC)

https://www.kraken.com/ (KYC)

BTC -> Monero:

https://bisq.network

https://trocador.app/en/

https://unstoppableswap.net/

https://kycnot.me/?xmr=on

Buy Monero gift cards for almost anything:

https://coincards.com/us/

Spend Monero directly:

https://monerica.com/

https://moneromarket.io/

https://kycnot.me/services?xmr=on

...and Darknet Markets!

Hope this is useful to you

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

Less messy version without urls, my bad...

Open source wallets:

-monerujo (Android only)

-stackwallet (Bitcoin/Monero only version available - Android, iOS)

-cakewallet (Monero only version available - Desktop, Android, iOS)

-featherwallet (Desktop only)

-getmonero(dot)org (Desktop only)

Fiat -> Monero:

-localmonero (noKYC)

-kraken (KYC)

BTC -> Monero:

-bisq

-trocador

-unstoppableswap

-kycnot(dot)me

Buy Monero gift cards for almost anything:

-coincards

Spend Monero directly:

-monerica

-moneromarket(dot)io

-kycnot(dot)me

...and Darknet Markets!

cryptowolf 2y ago

Another good one, had to share

https://bitcoiner.guide/privacy/

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Lots of reading to do 😔

cryptowolf 2y ago

Bitcoin Bookmarks folder :-D

Frank "RICO" Blunt 2y ago

lets us know what you find

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

This seems like the best option imo.

Layertwolabs have proposed a Z-cash type sidechain for complete end-2-end encrypted BTC transactions.

https://www.drivechain.info/projects/

Frank "RICO" Blunt 2y ago

a side chain seems the likely solution

cryptowolf 2y ago

it seems like at the end of the day the possibilities for Bitcoin are limitless, without ever necessarily updating the core protocol ever again ;-)

Frank "RICO" Blunt 2y ago

the core should always be improved but you have it right

cryptowolf 2y ago

There are regular improvements, but its always up to the node operators to "vote".

Not a dev myself either. But I heard lightning splicing improve anonymity on lightning even further.

Haven't really read on it yet

It’ll never be as private as some people want it to be.. as in, a public ledger cannot be private. That just is what it is.

If you want privacy on the base level, then you cannot verify that it has a capped supply. At least, we haven’t worked that out yet.

But, privacy solutions can be built on top of amthe public ledger, to solve most privacy problems. Look at lightning and things like Fedi, crash.. look at coinjoin etc.

Most privacy problems come from the fiat on and off ramps. In a bitcoin circular economy, privacy would be a lot easier to come by.

Listen to guy swan read 749 for a little more here 🤙

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

I would never propose a change to the base chain.

You could move your btc to Monero type sidechain or roll up trustlessly use your btc on this layer for any transactions you wish to be private and as simple to use as any other blockchain. However requires a soft fork similar to taproot.

You have lightning companies that are using AI to track all your transaction on ln. Fedimint and ask is interesting but I think it will like have to same weaknesses in terms of privacy as lightning.

Yes you can buy non-kyc bitcoin and never spend it. But whole point of money imo is to spend your money p2p without any middle men or state surveillance.

I am just a paranoid dude l. I really wish to see brc to be like cash. One can dream.

There’s a few ways around this. Send your funds in and out of liquid then send some over to self custody on your own lightning node and spend with lightning. There’s no need to give people the address of your main stack if you don’t want to. Sure it’s a work around at present but over time it’ll become easier and easier. These things take time but saying that the pace of development is unreal in my mind. And Nostr and zaps are the icing on the cake. You can top up lightning channels using liquid atomic swaps.

https://boltz.exchange

Sovereign Matt 2y ago

Why would I trust a federation with my coins it’s basically trusting an exchange. When I mean privacy I mean just as easy as using cash. Not giving up my coins to custodian who may not return my coins and hope my txs can’t be traced back to me. From what I read it. You need true end-2-end encryption from the privacy experts I have spoken to.

Using liquid in and out for privacy isn’t a worry there’s nothing custodial about it as you just said it’s federated! If you want to use cash as in hand people the physical #Bitcoin use an

- https://opendime.com

- https://cashu.space

- https://satscard.com

Or print your own cash using a paper wallet to the value you wish - https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-wallet/paper/