"Christians: we don't win down here." -- John MacArthur
"In this world, you will have tribulation. But do not lose heart: I have overcome the world." -- Jesus
"Even so, come Lord Jesus" -- and quickly.
Discussion
What does that mean: “we don’t win down here”??
I'm Amillennial. Was surprised to hear a premil guy say that. I mean, Col. 3. I mean, "here we have no continuing city," we "look for a better, one with foundations," etc. I mean Romans 8 - sheeps to the slaughter. I mean that Christ repeatedly told us that he has overcome the world and to not lose heart in the face of tribulation. We don't win in a geopolitical kingdom of God consummated now kind of way. That is "not yet."
I’ve been thinking a lot about this recently.
Do you feel like this graphic is accurate in describing your position?
It’s been one of the more helpful graphics for me as of late in trying to wrap my head around all of it.
https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/resources/PDF/end-timeline.pdf
Not quite. I'd follow Vos, from his Pauline Eschatology:
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You can still be optimistic as an amill guu though. Jmac is dispensationalist, i dont think that counts as a legitimate premil position, but then again, maybe he isnt leaky anymore.
The ultimate Christian hope is not utopian earth through progressive improvements, but rather the finished work of Christ, brought to fullness in eternity. Our hope is not in princes, presidents or political processes, it's in heaven where Christ is king now and forever.
I’ve heard that and believed that all my life up until recently.
The dissonance for me lately has been the idea that we’re exhorted to pray that His kingdom come on earth 🌎 as it is in heaven, but in our eschatology we fundamentally discount the significance of the world 🌎 because it will be dispensed with and heaven should be the real aim.
It just feels like we’re talking with both sides of our mouth.
I’m not a Utopianist.
I’m just suggesting that we may not be conceptualizing our relationship with the (physical) world appropriately.
The Natural Law gives what we need there, IMO.
When I pray "thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven," I mean a few things. It means: may the kingdom of God, which is in our hearts, spread (through evangelism, discipleship, church growth). It is an ethical thing. I also mean "hasten the 2nd Advent," and that's a geopolitical thing.
My favorite illustration of this is Rahab praying this same thing in Jericho. She wanted Joshua to hurry up. He was coming, even at the gate.
The church is Rahab in a cosmic Jericho.
Your post today reminded me of this conversation we started a few months ago. I’ve got some ideas I’d like to run by you.
Jonathan Pageau recently offered a symbolic interpretation of the story of Rahab in an attempt to explain the story of the shrewd manager.
I bring it up here because I think his interpretation of the symbolism in the story of Rahab has some implications on the way we should be thinking about the world 🌍 as it pertains to our eschatology.
If I can bother you for 15min of your time, I’m sure this is a take you aren’t familiar with:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/6p9OTngJDpoyZRB3NRNyBR?si=TJl8i0xYR5SzLX_NV9aW6Q&t=727
Not a bother at all - I enjoyed that. I think he's spot-on, and I've even taught the same interpretation before. Jesus isn't exactly commending the possible theft there, but the wisdom of planning for the next phase of life, of doing costly things - even risky things, dangerous things - now that will benefit you later. (Contrary to Osteen: "Your Best Life THEN!") It reminds me somewhat of the forward-looking (or perhaps ultimate-looking) perspective in Paul's "bodily exercise is indeed profitable in this age, but godliness is profitable for both this age and the age to come." And, of course, Colossians 3 springs immediately to mind as well. 🤝
I have to say though, that I'm a little annoyed. I already don't have enough time for my current podcast list...now you've tempted me to add ANOTHER one?? Come on, bro 😅 -- jesting aside, I've caught clips of Pageau here and there for years, and have always found his 'takes' thought-provoking at the very least. I appreciated this very much!
😂 Sorry about that!
His podcast is one I’m referencing often these days!
If you missed the Exodus seminar he was a part of last year you’re missing out big time.
It was incredible 🤯
I don't think they are exclusive. We are living in Christ's kingdom now. We are ambassadors for it in the world (but not of it). Our victory isn't in earthly governments or Christian politicians, it is in working for the kingdom in a way that can only ultimately come to fullness after the final judgement when heaven and earth are made new. Focusing on here and now (culture wars, zionism or nah, theological disputes, personality cults, etc.) to the exclusion of eternity is as useless as looking so much to eternity that we neglect the work that needs done here and now.
Matthew 6:10 ESV
[10] Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.