Nostr Web Client

Disagree.

You *can* use conjoin if you want to, or have some important reason to, but the point of bitcoin IMO isn’t to be secretive about your wealth.

If you live in a nice house or drive a nice car, people will know you are wealthy anyway, and there is nothing wrong with being wealthy. You don’t need to hide it as though it’s something to be ashamed of.

The point of bitcoin isn’t to hide who you are or what you are doing, it’s to be able to be it and do it, whether or not people want to permit it or approve of it.

You want to hide it if the communists can otherwise seize it. But the point of BTC is that it’s not seizable by the communists and therefore defeats communism.

I see a lot of this “freedom tech” being touted as the ability to hide from he authorities, when instead I think the message should be it gives the power to be right in the sights of the authorities but they’re powerless to do anything about it.

The real fuck you isn’t, you don’t know who I am, it’s you know exactly who I am, and you can’t do shit about it. nostr:note1lr7cahh2mdsrpv3n3ftqw7nsuz3ql3r77z0y9k0f7raczky4hk4qy3hhv3

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Discussion

inventor 2y ago

If you are not free to hide from the so-called "authorities", then how can you call it "freedom" tech?

The State has a monopoly on violence, people have perfectly valid reasons to hide a lot, everything even.

I want the State to forget that I even exist.

Chris Liss 2y ago

You seem to think hiding is necessary for freedom. I don’t. The State is emboldened when people hide. When people tell it to fuck off, it shrinks into irrelevance. By fearing it and hiding from it, you make it stronger.

inventor 2y ago

All I hear is "Satoshi was a pussy".

Well, you're evidently wrong. Satoshi did the right thing.

Hiding buys you time, time is power.

The State knows this very well and invests billions in intelligence agencies that ended up essentially owning the government.

Deep State? Hello???

Chris Liss 2y ago

No, Satoshi needed to be anon. He was birthing system-destroying new freedom tech. He was the ultimate spy.

We are not spies. We are soldiers. And you want the enemy to see the size of your army and decide to negotiate peacefully.

inventor 2y ago

Hummmm... But spies don't build stuff.

I think that we are neither spies nor soldiers, we are builders.

There's this paradigm of war, and now I think that I understand where you're coming from. The State thinks like this, in terms of war. But we do not confront, we don't play the game.

Try to think differently and see it as "we fuck off to build new stuff and we don't want anyone to follow us."

A breakaway society that grows from within the legacy zombie old world.

We are above them. The OPsec measures are only necessary while they still have power, but we already won.

We are way above them.

Chris Liss 2y ago

I agree with this — war is only one lens through which to view it.

But the metaphor isn’t important.

The point is while some people really do need to be anonymous, on the whole it’s bad game theory. For each anon individual, it’s helps them in the short term to evade the wrath of the state. But by being anonymous, you perpetuate its frame and empower it.

That’s why they censor and why they punish those who speak out: because they want people hiding and afraid. They don’t want people openly defying them.

If you’re the deep state you want a fearful and hiding population, only dissenting in secret. Last thing you want are people doing it out in the open because that’s contagious.

inventor 2y ago

People "doing it in the open" is EXACTLY what the monopoly on violence known as "State" wants!

Please go back to your three letter agency and ask for better material. This is not working well for you.

Chris Liss 2y ago

True colors. Ugly.

Sourcenode 2y ago

Long term I agree with you. Bitcoiners will be hard targets and if the coins can't be mixed there would be no way to get away with theft and no incentive for kidnapping.

However in the transition to a bitcoin future privacy may save a lot of lives. How long this process takes is impossible to determine.

Chris Liss 2y ago

I think certain people need to be anonymous like Satoshi.

But the vast, vast majority do not. And no doubt by revealing yourself you add some personal risk. But game theory-wise, you reduce your long-term risk by normalizing the use of the protocol under your own name.

I really think the message should be stand up, don’t apologize or hide for using freedom tech. Otherwise it’s not freedom tech.

Sourcenode 2y ago

Ultimately I would like for that to be a personal choice. Everyone can choose how much they want to reveal. I've taken a bit of a middle road personally.

Without people like Matt advocating for privacy the choice may vanish. He has sacrificed his own privacy to stand up for the privacy of others, which I appreciate.

Chris Liss 2y ago

100 percent agree you should have the choice to conjoin. No objection to that at all. I don’t care to out anyone.

I’m just saying the message is backwards and a drag on the purpose of the tech which is freedom.

I’m not taking issue with Matt (I don’t know him.) I’m disagreeing with the message in that particular post.

Sourcenode 2y ago

Some people criticize bitcoin for being an echo chamber of people who all agree with eachother.

Little do they know how many different perspectives exist in the community. That's what keeps us strong 🙂

inventor 2y ago

Satoshi envisioned what we now know as Monero. He just didn't know how to make it, at the time.

Other folks with the necessary skills came and build it. But he described it.

So you're basically saying that you're smarter than Satoshi and he was wrong all the time.

Nice try, feds.

Low Information Voter 2y ago

Whatever happens,

We have got,

The Maxim Gun,

And they have not!

- The Honourable Belloc Hilaire, British MP, dissident and poet, 1902

He was talking about the power of government, especially imperialist government, over the masses.

Well, its a lot more true today than it was then. Its nice that somewhere, sometimes, you can do what the f--- you like and you don't get censored, caged, beaten, robbed, raped or murdered by agents of the state. But that isn't the reality for most people, most of the time. We aren't that privileged.

Cryptocurrency is the reengineering of a tool of government (fiat money) into its antithesis. That's wonderful. But.

It doesn't stop bullets. It doesn't soothe the sting of rubber hoses. It doesn't open prison doors.

The world needs brave activists and whistleblowers standing in the full glare of publicity, the Julian Assanges and Edward Snowdens. But it also needs anonymous builders, discreet evangelists documentation writers, beta testers, and even critics.

Veritas ✝️🇺🇲⚓⚡💊 2y ago

Do you view avoiding being taxed for capital gains every time you spend it as the equivalent of preventing the communists from confiscating it?

DrDaniel⚡️BlueRidgeBitcoin 2y ago

I don’t disagree.

Nate 2y ago

It is always a suspicious motive behind the suggestion that someone doesn't need financial privacy.

Well-known wealthy people get their homes broke into all the time by thieves. They are specifically targeted bc of what they are known to or even just perceived to maybe have.

You'd give up your 'unseizable' wealth the moment home invaders start hurting your family.

Sudden death of any wealthy bitcoiner has the fair potential to be a donation to the value of every remaining satoshi in circulation by decreasing the total available supply. This creates a new financial motive for the death of KNOWN wealthy people.

What do you call a person who is comfortable with a publicly searchable target on their back?

Chris Liss 2y ago

There are many well known wealthy people from famous actors to sports stars to CEOs to surgeons.

Normalize not making it a big deal and not living in fear.

But as I said you can hide if you want. My point was that having an unseizable asset was to make it unnecessary.

Nate 2y ago

But #Bitcoin is extortable from many. The likelihood of this being violently attempted (however unsuccessfully) goes up with the value.

It is not 'living in fear' to take a common sense measure to preserve your financial privacy.

Wanting financial privacy is legitimate, appropriate, expected and essential to making free decisions.

Chris Liss 2y ago

You should take whatever precautions you feel are necessary. I just think in a world of hyperbitcoinization, it’s going to be awfully obvious that if you’re rich you have some the way it is with fiat now.

The better bet IMO is to normalize people of disparate means living together harmoniously rather than the communist premise that it’s impossible which all the hiding buys into.

I think you should be allowed to hide it, but I think long term it’s the weaker ethos and the path of more rather than less robberies and extortions.

Legion XXI 2y ago

I somehow disagree with your disagreement. If you have a Bugatti and live in a mansion, no one really knows how much exactly you have. They might break into your house and rob some stuff or your car but most of your wealth is probably somehow protected, in banks, real estate and other financial third parties or instruments. Hard to get to those!

And while I agree that Bitcoin has the property of being unconfiscatable, you don’t want to be in a position where you are a target. There are stories from the UK, Canada and Sweden among others, where criminals broke in, tied down people for hours and finally got ahold of seed phrases, access to wallets, etc.

It’s easy to think we are all tough guys, ready to defend what’s ours (we should be!) but it might be a different story when you have a family to protect and a bunch of violent guys decide to pay you a visit.

Don’t wanna scare anybody with this, we should be out building community, spreading the Bitcoin wonders and teaching to those who are ready for it, but a little bit of prudence and privacy in managing your wealth should be encouraged.

Chris Liss 2y ago

Don't get me wrong -- I am 100 percent for prudence and not making yourself a target, but whether you have 20 million or 100 million dollars really doesn't matter to someone trying to rob you. You're obviously rich and have stuff they want.

And I'm not against coinjoining if you want to, only the ethos on this site that you should hide your identity to post anything, hide your interest in freedom tech and freedom money because otheriwse you're a target.

It's not really freedom tech IMO if you have to hide.

Also, why aren't people robbing Saylor? Because they assume he has a custody solution that makes him unrobbable. I think that's something to normalize too.

Legion XXI 2y ago

Correct! Or all the other prominent and very public Bitcoiners who are easier to meet than Saylor. Make yourself unrobbable with a custody solution that fits your case.