Yes, there is no earthly utopia. Just the cycle of government or chaos.
Discussion
Humans are supposed to BUILD that utopia.
Here and now. Starting with the environs of Eden. Guess who screwed that up? Instead of blaming the past, we are called to build it in the here and now.
This is one thing that The Orthodox communions get 100% correct. Their concept of Theosis is more in line with what I read in the NT, and a fullfillment of the first commandments God gave to our progenitors.
No, we cannot build utopia. That is a divine right and we are mere pilgrims.
our society is nevertheless free and just.
In what way? All human society is more or less corrupt and tyrannical, as we are prone to sin.
i see, and can you explain to me how that is happening when i am having a conversation with you, as a right-seeking person one to another?
Right-seeking is not the same thing as being sinless.
nothing in this universe is without a lack of something. it actually is key to how the whole thing operates.
outside of human society, it is war. outright war. life and death.
the whole point of this "creating man" thing was to enable life that does not exist as a zero sum.
Duh.
But the orientation of or heart should be Towards Christ. Not Man.
Doesn't stop us from regularly being wrong.
i'm not sure how much thought you have put into it but getting the right answer means having all the data.
we literally cannot have all the data. but we can use rules that don't oppress people also, reasonable rules. that's how equity jurisprudence arose. OUT OF THE BRITISH MONARCHY NO LESS.
seriously, having your heart in the right place is a real thing, you literally cannot have all the facts. the end.
i'm never going to apologize for being a limited, subjective individual.
never
ever
ever
and the reason why is that is the crack that psychopaths use to compromise your agency.
anyway, maybe you never got your agency stolen from you. good for you.
Well, that is only because we have not drawn so close to Him. He doesn't expect perfection. He just expects us to turn to Him in all things.
If we are to dedicate our entire being to be more Christlike, you cannot help but be less sinful, and thus more correct. We won't ever hit perfection until the everything is passed away and God makes everything anew, but . . .
That does no absolve us from doing what we are created to do. You do a lot of that already. I put forward that you do that IN SPITE of being hampered by the state and all its evils, and you have been blessed for doing so. (From what I know of you and your life.)
That is where we are supposed to step in, as Christ Followers, to build a better world by being more Christ-like. That is the most revolutionary, destructive act to the evil in the world.
that's my opinion. if you aren't trying to outdo Jesus of Nazareth, are you even trying?
Yup. Pretty much it. Though, I don't think any of us CAN, we sure can become more like Him and thus, shift the world towards The True, The Good, and The Beautiful, like we were created to do as reflections of The Most High.
No, the most revolutionary act would be trying to be more like Christ, even if you knew it would make the world worse.
how could that be Christ like if it makes things worse?
no, actually, the whole point, which many people deliberately ignore, is that it enables a righteous society when the society is capable of recognising mischief.
mischief is the crack that the bad guys stuff a wedge in to widen as much as they can.
Yes.
We are supposed to be fruitful and subdue the earth.
When God created the world he called it GOOD. Not perfect. He then created us to be co-creators with Him. Creators of what?
The Church Militant, I suppose, bringing the Gospel to the ends of the Earth and into our homes and communities, until He returns.
I don't mean subdue other humans militantly. That is not what Jesus charged us to do. Go forth preaching the gospel and baptizing them is not the same as forcing people to convert by the sword.
I meant that each human is a son and daughter of The Most High, and we are to rule what we are given and make it beautiful and order it to produce more than is put in, as God does. We are the heirs to his kingdom, and as such, we may not rule over each other with violence and coercion, but with love.
exactly. it's about respect. the problem we have as a society now is there isn't enough people saying "this is wrong"
Who decides what is right and what is wrong? Everyone has a different opinion.
yeah, that's the point. there is an objective level to this.
what is the problem is all this wishy washy apologising for those psychos who disagree.
yeah, fuck you victim. no, i don't accept this behaviour, no matter how normal it is.
it's not normal. it's fucking abuse.
wrong.
god put us here to establish the kingdom of heaven on earth.
and that's what we're doing.
That Kingdom is in our hearts. We, the living Church, are the Kingdom. He is our King.
[[book:: bible | Luke 17:20-21 | DRB]]
Why bother doing any good thing if it is only in our hearts?
The future coming Kingdom is one thing. Living and loving God's kingdom into existence in the here and now is part of what we as Christ followers are supposed to do.
Building a world via God's love is super hard, but it is the only thing to do, IMO. I want this world to be better around me because I am learning to love as Christ did.
Our good works aren't merely external; they're the fruit of God's grace transforming us into His likeness.
Its in our hearts, so that we may be welcomed into His kingdom after our time has come.
As we love and serve, we become partakers of the divine nature. We don't build God's Kingdom, we cooperate with His will through genuine love, making heaven visible on earth, within our hearts and the hearts of those we care about.
We're supposed to try. Expecting to achieve a utopia is silly, but not trying is worse by far.
I might even try harder than anyone in this thread, but I know that I completely depend on Christ's Mercy and that I constantly fail Him.
The closer I get to the target, the more aware I am, of how much I have missed the mark. And the more sceptical I become, of people who claim that they rarely miss, or that they just need to get together with some people "on their level", to build Utopia.
Everything we do, on Earth, is merely best-effort. I hope we all get our participation trophy and I know that we are obliged to make the effort until He returns to reign as King. That is all that I know.
Just a fun fact here: The word "utopia" means "nowhere". Thomas Moore chose the name deliberately.
Both Stella and I are aware of that, I am sure. 😁
there is no earthly utopia because every 6000 years the galaxy and the sun make sure that only the fittest survive, and in that process, mutate, a lot, because of the radiation, from said galaxy and sun.
utopia actually must, and necessarily be, post-terrestrial