Wow, things have really changed huh. All lion? I heard lion wasn't ideal for frequent charge/discharge cycles such as solar storage? I guess the more modern units like power walls and stuff are all lion?
Discussion
yeah, i think they have improved the tolerance for shallow cycle charging a lot in the last few years but it's still not ideal
if it's a fixed installation lead and sulphuric acid are still king on cost
this lithium stuff is just fashion and stupidity if it's not a vehicle
I very much disagree. Lead acid is a pretty terrible chemistry and can be much more dangerous if not actively and correctly maintained.
LiFePo4 doesn't need anything at all except occasionally checking the torque on the buss bars, and with the very good BMS solutions that we have, it's very easy to not have to think about the system at all since it just works.
but what is the premium for this cost?
and how hard is it to ensure that your installation ventilates any stray hydrogen sufficiently?
i remember an episode of Mr Robot where they rigged up a server battery farm to vent mass hydrogen and then use some other device to spark it but the actual reality is that hydrogen combustion is very fussy about air rations, very very tight range, tighter than octane engines use and way way tighter than the ratios of diesel
Not very high when you factor in cycle cost. Most FLA batteries MIGHT make it to 500 cycles but that's IF you have a big enough bank to keep the C rate for change and discharge VERY low.
Most prismatic lifepo4 cells are rated to at least 4k cycles, and that's at max charge and discharge rates. It is very likely that the cells I've got will last 20 years in the use that I put them through. FLA cannot compete with that.
That's a fairly clever plot point. Yes, hydrogen fires are more picky, but, not hard to have issues other than conflagration. Free hydrogen is exceptionally corrosive, and, the face remains that if you let your batteries get to the point of venting hydrogen, lots of things have gone wrong. (Yes, I'm aware you get hydrogen when charging, but, this is why I prefer sealed batteries like AGM.)
well, i'm not an expert in battery backup systems, and i'm of the opinion that any serious setup actually only uses them to stay up until the diesel generators (2+) kick in to maintain power because the whole density and safety problem is solved with diesel
so probably, my guess is, these days with a diesel genny and a small Li battery bank you got it sorted
i think the subject though is about people with solar/wind/battery based setups and not mains connected?
no, i looked back, it's just for coping with up to a day of bullshit from the mains provider
diesel generator is the main thing, the batteries are just there to keep it live until the generator gets to the needed voltage
so, actually, the lead acid is better because it doesn't dissipate charge as fast
Generally, yes.
Eventually, when I own my own property, I will be building everything off grid. More solar will be necessary, but that's easy enough with enough fiat.
well, diesel is more resilient against EMP
literally the engine can be set up so it can't be disabled, only the electrical parts in the generator
diesel engines don't actually need condensors and batteries and starter motors
you can just have a crank, that's it, crank, and a few cycles of that and you get enough compression and the diesel burns by itself
it is the most beautiful technology, but hard to find it set up without that electricity dependency and hard to find it used to directly generate torque or pressure for fluid or rotational work only
IMO, using electricity as the universal intermediate for the transmission of force is a dumb idea when we are at a solar peak while the galactic magnetism is flipping through a vertical point and might actually cause our planet to physically spin
and honestly, i'm of the opinion that this electronic tech should be shielded and grounded, always, and you all who don't get what that means are not going to have computers before the next 20 years pass
mobile devices are all gonna go blank one day, zero reception, everywhere, no hotspot, no mobile, no nothing
the bulk of undersea and underground - especially optic - cables are gonna keep working, and all the junction poitns and routers will be moved underground and shielded, and then, people are gonna realise
we can't do mobile radio for a while now
we are gonna be lucky if your electrical devices work at all, most household wiring is going to be fucked, fused randomly all over the shop
you won't be able to cook, heat, or cool or wash
this is going to lead to a radical change in how people think about energy use, and the dirty inconvenient diesel generator being on site versus 3km away
spoiler alert
better it's here, better it has mechanical junctions to your heating and cooling pump systems and washers, and better you design your houses to be passively efficient
but i'm sure your children will be into this
I agree with having "low-tech" redundancies, and, in my case, designing things to work without any electricity in the first place.
i just fucking hate induction cooking, so i'm very fond of the idea of having bbq
very big fan of bbq, as is our Lord who may show up one day and be hungreh
Why do you hate induction cooking?
I'm not opposed to it.
BBQ is the best. 😁
the complexity of the technology versus the efficiency gain is not worth it
i'm pretty sure catalytic electrolysis of water to hydrogen is more efficient, and easier and simpler and more reliably distributed
i have a 12" diameter pan
the induction heating only covers a ring around 8" of the pan
how am supposed to account for this in my cooking technique so i don't get undercooked food?
yes! ridiculous, only cook in 9" pan
now, go to your kitchen and look if you have a 9" pan
after that, go inspect your bbq and see if it can cope with a 12" steak
A very even 8" of heating is better than most gas rings. Set it low and give your pan time to heat evenly.
I cook pretty much exclusively on cast iron (or enameled steel) and I can cook whatever, wherever, however I want.
Hydrolysis is very energy intensive. I don't like trying to store hydrogen, so you'd need an hho generator big enough to get enough flow to provide a flame that's enough to cook with. I can't think that would be easy or especially efficient electrically, as an induction cook top might legitimately more electrically efficient.
I've seen larger "professional" induction cookers that could easily handle a big pan.
my biggest problem with all of it is when the power goes out i'm not able to cook
cylinders of propane are more resilient (i'm not a fan of gas pipes everywhere either)
tbh, i prefer wood cooking, better for flavour of the food and not subject to any technological nonsense outage problems or supply
You could use an induction cooker for emergencies.
Propane is very resilient, but also very dependent on the whole petroleum refining infrastructure. It's not wise to be too dependent on that, IMO, especially since propane is on the Hit list for elemination. Prices will keep going up, and it's already more expensive than electricity in stone places
my preference overall is charcoal grilling
if it isn't cooked on charcoal i don't want to eat it, it's fine cold or room temperature
my personal ideal for food is precisely balkans style:
- charcoal grill
- fermented preserves stored in the basement, sauerkraut, turshiya salata
- some fresh, in season veg grown in my backyard, the majority ends up as winter salad preserves
- some of the meat is pasteurised in jars for winter when the fresh meat is thin or generally for maintaining a 1+ year surplus of food
i want to be already feeding how i will feed when there is no power and no internet and no international freight transport or refrigeration
i don't think we are going to get uninterrupted service over the next 20 years
No. LiFePo4. It's much safer and easily handled most loads and charging. There are some new chemistries coming onto the market that are even better, but the scale and density makes them more expensive and too heavy for my application at this time.
I'm not sure what "real products" are using these days. I pay very little attention to that since I build my own as it's way, way cheaper. My ~5kWh pack works flawlessly, though, there's a few things that I know I should do to increase safety and usability in not so far fetched circumstances, and, I do need much more battery discharge capacity since I have dual 3kw inverters (set up to run 240V split phase to supply an eventually installed heat pump that will by my main source of heat and cooling) that can draw more amps than this pack is designed to handle, though, I don't worry much about that since as long as the grid is up and solar is coming in, both of those sources can be prioritized and the batteries can be saved for an outage.