(XMR/USD)÷(BTC/USD) = (XMR/X) / (BTC/X), no matter the X.
At least that's what most will think you're arguing against, which is hard to dispute.
Maybe if you gave a concrete example where this doesn't hold it would help. Are there dark market things discounted in xmr vs btc?
in the real world the denominator doesn't just disappear.
we're still using USD as the fundamental measuring stick.
we are still measuring "The number of U.S dollars chasing an XMR versus the number of U.S dollars chasing a BTC"
if the thesis is "the USD is a broken measuring stick." then it's not intellectually consistent to use it when it's use fits your narrative, does it?
but maybe I misunderstood your point?
Use whatever good or service for X you like, no USD need be involved.
The thing is you can't really escape it, for time being, because it's the most salable good (think I'm using this term right, deepest liquidity...you get idea). You know this, we've talked arbitrage before.
Guess I'm just critical of how you present this argument times I see it come up. Maybe you're so xmr-pilled you no longer see things like the rest of us.
I'll stop butting into this particular issue, as I don't know anything more to say about it
prices are set in USD.
you can divide prices by the USD price of X to make X whatever you want, sure.
it doesn't have anything to do with Monero or anything else.
You are NOT getting away from the US dollar by dividing a USD price by another USD price.
its absurd.
🫂
oh ok 🤷
I thought I gave you the path to making your point when I suggested dark market discounts (I assume they exist, I don't personally have experience).
A simple example of where xmr gets you more of something than usd-equivalent of btc would give us a starting point to discuss. I think we'd quickly find the cases are very niche. It takes time to break game theoretic equilibrium like UofA.
I honestly dont understand if theres disagreement here 🙂
I dont think I suggested anywhere that Monero was better that Bitcoin for increasing your fiat purchasing power...?
my only point is "that chart measures relative fiat NGU"
because US Dollar UoA.
and thats really all 😂
Thought I was helping you improve your argument, since I think it's one of your weakest.
We're talking about money. Money is for purchasing goods and services now or in the future. If you can't find any examples where xmr gets me more of a thing relative to btc (usd equivalent) now or in future, then what is your point? Privacy? Spell it out, or give concrete example of a thing. Otherwise it just seems like you're arguing against basic math.
I think that's the thinking of people you go in circles with on this.
Hmm, I hate that I keep having to write "usd equivalent"...maybe you've gotten in my head.
I'm running away from this convo now, until next time 🏃♂️
Both BTC and XMR have a relative and distinct value to what is perceived the dominant medium of exchange which makes it the UoA.
Change it for something else, gold, a CBDC, Bitcoin or Monero and you'll get to tally different relative valuations.
Everything is in flux.
(1) Normally we see fluctuations within the dominant MoE.
Meaning USD adoption gets bigger or smaller. Or there is more or less friction compared to its former self (AML), which then creates opportunity for competing MoE systems.
This is where BTC rose to prominence and where we compare Bitcoin vs USD (better protection against inflation, less acceptance) and Monero vs USD (better privacy, less acceptance)
(2) Then there are special times where the dominant MoE reached its end of lifecycle. In this scenario we can expect a nonlinear adjustment of valuations.
Meaning we get to choose a new dominant medium of exchange that ideally needs to check more boxes than the one before. In blockchain based systems we have the hard problem of scalability with self-custody and the soft problem of aceptance (that's only hindered on the social level through USD paid regulators).
Imagine a world where any of the following mediums becomes the new UoA.
1) Gold
2) CBDC
3) Bitcoin
4) Monero
How would you relatively value Bitcoin under a gold standard?
How would you value Monero under a CBDC standard?
How would you value Monero under a Bitcoin standard?
And how gold under a Monero standard?
Now take into account that there are some societal trends like digitalization. Some even converging like AI & government & surveillance.
How would any future dominant MoE fare under such a new regime? It might give you a hint what to look for from a perspective of power dynamics and degrees of freedom.
Not a bad take for such a complex question.
I'd certainly value security of network very very high. One of the big problems with monero that's often overlooked.
Will give it more thought though.
PS - just me or you have no pfp?
Nice explanation.
Someone was encouraging me to look at the Bitcoin/Gold rate for a different perspective on relative investment. That makes good sense to me.
Was it Wigit?
Also, btc/gold doesn't escape the usd issue you were bemoaning earlier
It doesn't
but since they serve a similar purpose for many people I think its an interesting data point.
It's interesting for a measure of "true" usd appreciation if you subscribe to theory of gold being best measure of usd inflation, sure
I don't think I subscribe to that one.
I think USD is a broken measurement and it's therefore impossible to have accurate pricing.
which is why I am so pedantic about maxis thinking a X/BTC chart is somehow informative of something more than degen gambling.
Maxis (for lack of a better term) literally think they can get away from USD by dividing two US dollar prices.
They *fundamentally misunderstand* the role of UoA and it's importance.
this rant of mine demonstrates, despite their best efforts and best intentions, they are NOT going to get away from fiat so easily.
the US dollar baseline is so ingrained that I can literally spell it out (XMR/USD÷BTC/USD) and people will refuse to see it because "they don't touch fiat" and I'm a "fiat maxi" for pointing it out.
they don't understand that *as long as the price of BTC is denominated in fiat* there is no Bitcoin standard possible.
We are always comparing based on the UoA.
He is right. As long as your bills are denominated it dollars he is correct, even when you buy something with bitcoin it is still priced in fiat then converted to btc based on current market prices. So the item your buying will fluctuate in sats based on market price. No one is pricing things directly in sats and keeping the price in sats fixed. Ie coffee for 10,000 sats and price stays the same 10,000 sats all year.
Bitcoin has better NGU over long term Monero has had better NGU over short term ie last year.
So depending when you bought your sats is the determining factor of which preserved your purchasing power better.
And even holding dollars this year has preserved your purchasing power better. It is what it is.
its not even really the point though.
not mine anyway 😅
this chart is a map of relative *fiat speculation*
Dont use it to virtue signal about your hardcore maximalism, you're playing yourself.
Bisq prices xmr directly in btc so what's the deal? At least on there the valuations come from supply and demand, not fiat pricing.
finally someone brought up Bisq!
but you're only sorta right I think.
it maaaybe could be direct pricing,
but an island in the middle of fiat ends up being de facto fiat denominated.
because any deviation is an arbitrage opportunity. so people jump in to take advantage and drive the price back towards regular XMR/USD.
minus the friction of doing it, which is why theres some deviation.
yea arbitrage ruins it a lil, but mass delistings gives me hope
☝️ right. You can say it’s an inaccurate measure of purchasing power and call bitcoiners morons for their hypocrisy.
But if they are able to buy more goods and services compared to those holding usd/xrm is your point anything more than theoretically correct?
did I ever suggest you wouldn't have more fiat to spend if you had bought BTC?
over certain timespans of course.
if they want to argue "buy Bitcoin because number go up" I have no problem.
but that what the argument is.
its "speculate on Bitcoin, pump my bags" and thats all.
they just like to dress it up and pretend its something else.
ransomware payments are sometimes 10% discount in xmr...
Bitcoin coinjoins are expensive
also quite ineffective for large amounts 😁
Lol I'd read your first reply as XRP. Was about to mute
they probably swap into monero anyway
See, now there's your use case where there's a break from usd-pricing
isn't it still the relative fiat value?
minus fees?
how do you decide the swap rate without an agreed UoA?
isn't that UoA dollars?
Not sure, again I don't do anything even remotely illegal 😇
But it seems to be a marketplace that values the properties of xmr enough that there's a gap in fiat pricing that the usual arb/friction doesn't explain. Assuming the claim is true, of course.
