Yeah jumble has gotten really good other than supporting that nonsense where some people's image posts are separated from all other posts
Jumble has become my favorite web client. nostr:npub1syjmjy0dp62dhccq3g97fr87tngvpvzey08llyt6ul58m2zqpzps9wf6wl is really doing some great work.
Discussion
The images that are separated out into the "Pictures" tab are the ones that users posted as a kind 20 image, such as on Olas, rather than as a kind 1. Most Nostr clients only show kind 1 notes in the main feed, and Jumble has followed suit.
Many clients have no feed for kind 20 notes at all, as not all clients are expected to support all note kinds. Personally, I prefer how Jumble handles kind 20 over other clients, like Amethyst. Separate feeds for different note kinds is appropriate, one way or the other, though.
It's better to just not support kind 20 at all since kind 1 already allows image links and kind 20 offers nothing but fragmentation that damages network effects
I agree
I dunno, I think there is a place for image-focused clients that aren't just "Find all the kind 1 notes that have an image link in them." Though, admittedly, nostr:npub1klr0dy2ul2dx9llk58czvpx73rprcmrvd5dc7ck8esg8f8es06qs427gxc built a pretty good one with slidestr.net.
Many kind 1 clients also let you share your kind 20 notes easily as a kind 1 quote-post, if you want it to be seen on a "main feed." And when it comes to fragmentation, there is nothing stopping kind 1 clients from adding kind 20 to their main feeds, too. Heck, I just created a custom feed on #Coracle that does just that.
Having a separate kind allows each client to do something different, or decide not to include them at all. I like having the flexibility for Amethyst to do a feed of kind 20 and 22, Freeflow to just do kind 22, Olas to just do kind 20, Jumble to have separate tabs for kind 1 and kind 20, without any kind 22, and Coracle to allow the user to build a feed of whatever kinds they want to see in the same feed. Having clients do different things with the same content is one of Nostr's superpowers, right? It allows users to choose the client that best serves them the content they want to see in the way they want to see it.
Yup!
Yes right. It seems to me as absurd as if kind1 clients had a separate tab for "high quality YouTube links".
The idea of kind 20 is for people to share their own photographs and artwork. Something more than just sharing a screenshot, meme, or other image content that is often shared in kind 1 note, which would all get lumped into the same feed if it is just looking for kind 1 notes with image links.
Same thing as having a separate video kind. It is intended for posting original videos, with a title and description, as seen on flare.pub. Not just for every youtube or mp4 link someone might share in a kind 1 note.
Having separate kinds for such content allows each client to decide whether they want to have that content included in a single feed along with kind 1 notes, separate it out into a separate feed, let users decide what kinds they want in their feed, or not support certain kinds in their client at all.
I feel like hashtags could be a better solution
Perhaps, and I think that is what nostr:npub1klr0dy2ul2dx9llk58czvpx73rprcmrvd5dc7ck8esg8f8es06qs427gxc is using for categorizing images on slidestr. Correct me if I am wrong, nostr:npub1klr0dy2ul2dx9llk58czvpx73rprcmrvd5dc7ck8esg8f8es06qs427gxc.
But that's not a solution for reducing all content types down into kind 1. Images with separate hashtags for memes vs photography and art? Yeah, that's probably fine and something users will do naturally, and no one really wants to have all images taken out of kind 1 feeds.
Long-form, though? Probably should stay a separate kind. Same with TikTok style short videos. If I want to scroll though that content, I would rather do so in a separate feed than have it in my main feed, and I doubt I am alone in that. The same would be true for many other specialized kinds. Indeed, I would prefer that zap.cooking used a separate note kind instead of shoe-horning long-form into a recipe format, for instance. Now if I write a recipe, it will show up on habla.news as though it is an article or blog that I wrote... Separate kinds are helpful for classifying the types of content that should show up together, and then the client dev can decide if they want to have other types of content also show up in the same feed.
I do think it's great how we have simple uniform kind 1 posts and then a separate long form spec with more π―πΈπ»πΆπͺπ½π½π²π·π° πΈπΉπ½π²πΈπ·πΌ π€
Yes. Minimal formatting should be expected in kind 1. I almost wish it had a character limit, too. Way too many people effectively writing articles in kind 1...
Speaking of which, do you have any plans to truncate long kind 1 posts, and add a "show more" button in Jumble nostr:npub1syjmjy0dp62dhccq3g97fr87tngvpvzey08llyt6ul58m2zqpzps9wf6wl?
Already supported π
When? Recent update? I could have sworn I was just having to scroll through a repost of isolabellart's whole gallery just a couple days ago and wishing there had been a truncated version...
On a related note, I feel like the Olas trend has come and gone here in nostr. Olas hasn't been working for ages, but relatively few people seem all that fussed about it.
I can definitely see that being the case, too. I think part of the reason people aren't too fussed about it, though, is that other clients have now integrated kind 20, and also it's kind of par for the course with Pablo. He creates a lot of things that are decent ideas, half finishes them, leaves a number of things broken, and just moves on to something new...
Highlighter sort of boggles me, since that's a .com. Like literally the domain highlighter.com is worth hundreds of thousands of dollarsβhow do you acquire that premium of a domain name and then leave it to grow fallow?
Iβve noticed that having both kind 1 and kind 20 notes coexisting can confuse many users. They might wonder why some notes appear in the 'Pictures' tab but not in the 'Notes' tab, especially since, in traditional apps, the 'Pictures' or 'Media' tab is usually just a subset of the 'Notes' tab. They might also be unaware that if they post a kind 20 note, others wonβt be able to see their content on many clients.
If the quality of kind 20 content does indeed turn out to be higher than that of kind 1 in the future, Iβll create a separate app for it and further optimize it.
I think this is something that can be solved in client UX. For instance, in Amethyst, you can't add a kind 20 from the home feed. You have to go to the media feed, and vice versa. This makes it very clear that you are posting to a different feed.
When Olas first came out, I remember handling a lot of questions in the AskNostr hashtag about why the images they posted there weren't showing up in the main feed on other clients, but that died down within a couple weeks and I haven't seen similar questions in some time. That is also largely due to many major clients adding separate feeds for kind 20 that didn't exist at the time.
For regular users coming from platforms like X or Instagram, it's hard to grasp. It's difficult to explain why there are two different event kinds, why kind 20 doesn't show up on some clients, why it's placed in a separate tab on others, or even why notes posted in different feeds are considered different kinds of event
The reason there hasn't been much discussion about the issues with kind 20, in my opinion, is simply because its popularity has decreased. I quickly browsed through some big relays' kind 20 notes, and they are pretty scarce, with most of them looking like content posted by bots.
Someone coming from Instagram should have no trouble understanding why their posts to Instagram didn't show up on X, and someone coming from X should have no trouble understanding why their posts on X don't show up on Instagram. The same should translate to Nostr and understanding why posts to Olas, which is an Instagram ripoff, don't show up on "Twitter clone" clients.
It should further blow their minds when they learn that some clients can display both.
It doesn't, because users assume Nostr is like a platform, and that all clients on that platform should display all content the platform supports.
That said, I am warming up to the idea that kind 20 is superfluous, and we should just use hashtags to differentiate between memes, photography, and other forms of image-based media. There IS a distinction between kind 1 notes and kind 20, but it is small enough that maybe a separate kind isn't justified.
Kind 1 is a microblogging note that MAY contain image links, and kind 1 clients may or may not render those links as the images they link to, though most do.
Kind 20 is a picture and will ALWAYS contain an image link that supporting clients are expected to render. It MAY also contain a caption.
So, they are definitely different in how they function, but I agree that it can be confusing and kind 1 can fulfill the function of kind 20 and be pulled into a separate image feed if desired. Eh... I'd probably be fine with doing away with it after all.
Yes, exactly. When a client supports both kind 1 and kind 20, it can easily confuse users, and it's hard to handle because, from their perspective, the difference between the two isn't that significant.
As of now, I don't see the need for adding a new type to distinguish image-based notes. I also don't understand why Olas is doing it this way, it could easily achieve the same result with a special tag, like ["c", "image"]
It might be the temptation for everything to have a category, and kind 1 are called "short TEXT notes" on the NIPs repo, or as a "simple plaintext note." in NIP-10 specifically. Neither of those suggest that images belong within the umbrella of kind 1. Clients aren't even required to render image links in kind 1 notes.
