The simplest way to understand natural deflation is that everything keeps getting more affordable.

That’s it.

Instead of everything getting more expensive, it all gets more affordable with time. For the simple fact that all the capital goods and technological innovation we create make them easier to make… so of course they should cost less.

The result is simply a consistent and substantial increase in wealth and living standards for everyone.

I think we are very much ready for that and what we are very much sick of is the cycle of endless poverty and theft by the counterfeit class.

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PEOPLE NEED GOVERNMENT TO MANAGE THE MONEY SUPPLY FOR THEM TO PREVENT HARD TIMES FROM

HAPPENING!

If there is natural price inflation, everyone gets wealthier.

If there is inflation, only asset holders gets wealthier. Not mentioning, that who has to concentrate to put food on the table won't have a chance to buy assets, so in inflation, they will get poorer.

I am not sure if it is the best situation to "save them from hard times" by enpoverishing them. Isn't getting poorer a "hard times" anyway? So I replace a times that I deem will be hard for you to a times, that will be for sure hard for you. Does it sound a good deal?

Small note here, everything will become more affordable during deflation if innovations/optimizations keep coming. If there are always appearing more efficient ways of manufacturing etc

If I earned X money and can afford bread and water till the end of my life and I don’t actually want to do anything except for watching the birds in the nature and there are 80% of ppl like me - then prices of bread and water will skyrocket and CPU, jets and smartphones will fall down but nobody still buys it

So you assume that in the world where prices dont go up there are still ppl who want to risk and innovate. Who will try to fine products ppl want to spend money even though ppl stick to hoarding

This way those products must be of top quality (cancer cure) or essential (bread)

I really hope for that. But doubt a lot because our human nature is lazy and stupid usually. And I’m not really sure we are 100% ready for that

Hmmm, I am enjoying this conversation.

So in your opinion, people would

* stop working, and

* stop increasing their living standards

if they can afford bread and water for the rest of their life?

If this is true, wouldn't we have more people working as priests, or such.

Or wouldn't more people advocate minimalism?

Also if you can reach this amount of money early on, wouldn't you get bored on bread and water quite quickly?

On the other hand, if everyone is a millionaire, no one really is, because if everyone wants to buy the same products, and their supply is fix, its price will grow.

Hmmm, and how about billionaires? Why are most of them keep working?

Also if we think about that the "people won't work" in such case. This means that our end goal is to work until we die? Or make people work until they die?

When do you expect in a deflationary environment, that people would reach enough money to live for the rest of their lives.

Well, first, I think people should work until they die. Just not from 9 to 5, but by producing value to humanity in the way they enjoy - teaching, making art, growing kids etc

Second, regarding why would people stop increasing their life standard when they have basic needs covered — thats what we see today — there are people every here and there who don’t want to increase their life standard and stay in the same place for entire life. They don’t quit bad habits, don’t start eat healthy food, they are not eager for knowledge etc. and today those people struggle, work 9to5 and blame THEM (some other things) in their problem. But those people are forced to work by the economy. And they feel bad because: 1) they are forced, 2) they don’t want to improve their life. And I believe if such ppl will have basic needs covered by NGU they will just seat idle

Billionaires are a good example btw. Yes, there are sole of them who keep working even though they have everything covered. But first, I believe some of them could do it subconsciously because they are afraid to become poor again. And second, look at their kids who are wealthy from the start - being able not to think about money at all doesn’t seem to make those people contributing to humanity in the best way they can, doesn’t make them want to innovate — they usually mostly buy drugs and showoff with their wealth. And bitcoin doesn’t fix this

In your opinion, how can you get enough money to cover your basic needs?

*for the rest of your life

russian roulette

In deflationary economy? Lets quickly think here.

TL;DR its a VERY complex topic and I would like more energy put into researches then it goes into “few understand it” and “bitcoin fixes this”

First, I would point that even today there are a lot of people who have enough money to cover their basic needs even without having to work (creating value) — I’m talking homeless and some set of mild criminals, not billionaires. Its just their “enough” is pretty close to zero. Also, there are very many people who do the smallest amount of work just to cover their basic needs because they don’t want to improve their lifestyle because of laziness or can’t due to health issues. So all those types of people unlikely to contribute more in case of money become more and more expensive with time. At best - they will have slightly better lifestyle. At worst - number of types of those people will increase.

Second, lets imagine today all fiat currencies disappear, everything is priced in bitcoin. Each day you can buy more and more if you have bitcoin. (We probably have to omit what happens to the world since govts can’t properly fund themselves but thats completely another story). Then if all the money you can save only buys more bread and water each day (change to some food you like) and you have where to live and utilities also get less expensive somehow then you can pretty preciously calculate how much amount of money you need to live until 90 years. And you have a clear retirement plan “earn X btc and stop working”

However, probably different people will have different X values and different velocity achieving it so they will fall out of economy at different times. Which in reality will probably lead to random price changes - i.e. if all bread producers in the world decided to retire then probably price of bread will skyrocket even though money supply is fixed. And you who already retired with a plan should either chose something instead of bread or keep working more

But the main question is “will deflationary economy improve people’s desire to innovate and make progress and will make it easier of will it make things worse?”. Inflationary economy claims it does make things better (even if this is incorrect). Those who promote bitcoin and deflationary economy just say “fuck it, they print money, we don’t like it” instead of arguments and researches today unfortunately

Bitcoin was created as an act of protest of incompetent money management. And it does great job to make people more responsible if adopted. However, here we are, we have bitcoin working pretty good actually, but it doesn’t grow exponentially every month and even every 4 years recently. And some people who want more profits off of it claim we need more radical measures including govt overthow and removal of debt from economy (I have personally no idea how innovations could happen without debt and credit and would be very happy to read such researches instead of “FEW”)

Fuck, today no one even tries to answer the question “why the hell if in recent years money supply went crazy bitcoin haven’t even responded accordingly?!”. Instead bitcoin promoters say “THEY control its price by BLAH-BLAH-BLAH”

Hmmm, I think you touched many interesting topics in your answer, and I don't think you have hard feelings for any of the sides.

Let me try address some topics.

First, I think, if we will have fixed money supply, what we really solve in my opinion, is inflation induced by money supply changes. Inflation can be still there, but most probably, it won't be such "sticky", as we have now. As you mentioned e.g.: for bread. If most of the bread makers stop working, it can have huge inflation. So fixing the money supply is not really interfering with the inflation of the economy, it will only let it run by natural forces of supply and demand. For the bread case, in such a time in history, where bread prices skyrocket, in my opinion, more people will be incentivized to make bread, because they can earn a hell lot of money, with which they could "retire". So I would assume if bread prices grow, more people will go to sell bread on the market which will stabilize bread markets.

Usually to do something you have some costs, and you can have some returns. If most of the bread makers stop working, the gain you can get to make bread will be unproportional to its cost, so it will really worth to make it. But as more people enter bread making, it will naturally balance itself, and this is when the price stabilizes. At this point, it won't give you unproportional benefits of starting it, so the incentive will drop. I think usually this is refered to as an arbitrage opportunity which comes from market inefficiency. What is your opinion about this?

I don't there is ever money that is only deflationary. Money is a tool. By default, the total sum of money is always inflationary. If people run out of scarce money, they would find a new kind of money. That's how we always got some other kinds of money besides gold. With bitcoin, it'll be the same. There will be other kinds of money.