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Without mentioning USD price or current adoption, tell me why

#Bitcoin > #Monero

Zaps for those who give thoughtful responses for either side.

Larger network of users, higher hashrate, fully transparent ledger means no inflation bug could stay hidden, no tail emissions (imo better).

Couple questions for you, if you don't mind (currently leerning a bit about monero, not trying to prove any sort of point)? How does moneros txn size and block chain growth compare? I would assume doing the complicated anon part bloats the chain somewhat, but don't actually know. Also, I gather there are somewhat frequent updates to the mining side of things to keep is secure; is that hard to keep up with? How hard would it be for State to 51% attack the smaller monero network?

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Discussion

n0>1 9mo ago

I am also just looking to learn. I don't know the answers to these questions at all. Good questions.

YODL 9mo ago

Oh haha! Good man. Just started following you recently so assumed opposite based on this post.

Currently reading "Zero to Monero" to learn a bit more about various ring signatures (it covers a lot of additional things too)

n0>1 9mo ago

I have been holding some bitcon since 2017. I started mining in 2020. Recently I have been questioning more since moneri seems like another legit project. And I do wonder if the governments, saylors, gamestop, ETFs, etc are ruining what I thought bitcoin is supposed to be.

YODL 9mo ago

I get the sentiment, but bitcoin is bigger than those forces, thankfully. I never really studied any alts, but from a purely math perspective monero seems like a good investment of time.

n0>1 9mo ago

I tend to agree. I think bitcoin is here to stay. Maybe monero also. I like to stay open. I have been mining a tiny bit on my Mac because I have lots of extra free energy so why not.

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rafael_xmr 9mo ago

monero txs are slightly bigger in size than a btc tx, but a monero tx is smaller and more space efficient than a btc coinjoin so you end up paying less in fees and having less blockchain bloat for greater privacy, mining was solved with the creation of randomx in 2019 so no need to keep up, the State needs to control 51% of all CPUs that exist in people's houses, and also the creation and sale of new CPUs that enter the market very rapidly, versus controlling some big mining farms in a single place in BTC, or the creation and sale of ASICs which take months to develop and deliver

YODL 9mo ago

Thanks for the reply. Regarding 51% attack, you say half of all cpus, but that would only be true if everyone was being used to mine today. Wouldn't a more realistic possibility be an attack deployed at some sort of data center/server farm or multiple ones? Basically, how large is the existing mining network is the concern, no?

🇵🇸 whoever loves Digit 9mo ago

Doggie coin and Monero have both had 0 successful 51% attacks in their times, just like Bitcoin

Bitcoin is the biggest target and gets its security from the strongest defense

Doggie coin and Monero are smaller targets and get their security from proportional defense

Being profitable to mine with a cpu or gpu (instead of an asic) also helps ensure an unknown number of miners can be waiting to join the network at any time

YODL 9mo ago

That's a pretty good answer.

I wonder what the cost actually would be. Arguably it's easier to mount a surprise attack on networks not using asics. For example, when doge went wild a few years ago, I have to imagine the mining took some time to catch up, and there might have been a window where a large actor on sideline might find it profitable to surprise attack while shorting it...

🇵🇸 whoever loves Digit 9mo ago

Doge network is pretty huge. The market cap of the coin was in the millions of grams of gold that whole time. I don't know what that means for how many mining rigs are running it at a given time, but it's also been one of the most popular coins to mine over the time it's existed

YODL 9mo ago

Rough numbers, BTC about 67x market cap of doge. According to Google BTC network 580,000x more hash than lite coin (as of may 2024). I might be wrong to use litecoin hashrate, but my understanding is its merge mined and so litecoin mining is what secures it.

That feels like a juicy target to me, and I'm sure it's been discussed before, I just don't know the argument(s).

Not expecting you to research and answer for me or anything, just thinking aloud

🇵🇸 whoever loves Digit 9mo ago

You sent me down a bit of a rabbit hole.

I read a bit about merge mining and I still have no idea what it means.

However,

YODL 9mo ago

Sorry about that haha

Close hash rates but not enough to be considered identical, so perhaps there's more to it.

However, either one, or even the combined amount is waaay less than bitcoin even though market cap is relatively speaking a lot closer.

Maybe monero a better example to look, even though the profit by shorting mechanism is probably less available since it's not traded on places like RH.

Anyway, prob enough talking out of my ass for one day 😶‍🌫️

Rand 9mo ago

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Rand 9mo ago

*U* can ring my *B*Ell*****hell*/*ya *_* |'O'| l'O'l

🇵🇸 whoever loves Digit 9mo ago

Would there be any profit from shorting and destroying the network though? If you suddenly control the ledger and you can set balances to whatever you want, your trading firm might connect your position to you, freeze your accounts, and sue you or something

I think the real motivation for an attack would be to protect the dollar, but if you take down #2 you'd only make #1 stronger, and so 67x market cap ends up being proportional enough for 580,000x more hash

YODL 9mo ago

I assume it's legal to attack network. If successful price should crash. Shorts become profitable, and could in theory cover cost of attack.

I know such things have been discussed before, but never read any details.

And yeah, state attack to protect dollar is the real concern.

Not sure about reasoning that taking down doge would make BTC stronger (if that's what you're saying). Unclear to me, not disagreeing

🇵🇸 whoever loves Digit 9mo ago

I don't think there's a law against a 51% attack, but a trading firm could still just say they're not allowing short positions to be closed because fuck the law

They'd only let you do it if they're in on it, which they would be because they love dollars lol

🇵🇸 whoever loves Digit 9mo ago

And taking down doge with a 51% attack would make Bitcoin stronger against 51% attacks in particular, because more like the whole cryptocurrency industry would be focused on making sure it can't happen to Bitcoin

YODL 9mo ago

Yeah, agree now that you put it so simply

🇵🇸 whoever loves Digit 9mo ago

You also just made me realize something

I thought it was suspicious how I couldn't find any publicly traded companies that are confirmed to mine & hold dogecoin last I checked

But a 51% attack for someone shorting mining stocks would be profitable - brokerages can't just refuse to let you close short positions on stocks

Maybe it's just not quite big enough for that risk yet

🇵🇸 whoever loves Digit 9mo ago

I mean, for that risk to be taken by a publicly traded company