Understand this: Lightning is the only DECENTRALIZED scaling solution on the table.
Those saying Lightning is dead all push for centralized scaling. The fact is, Lightning will never cease to exist. You can't turn it off. We're a bunch of Alice's and Bob's who won't stop.
The only real threat to Lightning is Bitcoin's own success: fees on Bitcoin rise so much that Alice's small stack just won't cut it anymore. That means we have to keep improving Lightning and work on channel factories and LN symmetry.
Otherwise, we're going to have to put the issue of scaling into the hands of corporations who can afford running those centralized systems. Until then, our channels stay open.
Who is saying lightning is dead? And why lol? It works amazing? Been using for a few years and never had an issue?
Lightning is decentralized? It rarely works without custodians and large liquidity providers.
It's a kind of distributed (and regulated?) banking network on top of Bitcoin. The system design is defined by standard use cases and not by fringe edge cases, where some nerds manage their own channels.
Long live Lightning 💜⚡️🧡
It’s a great idea but in my POV as service provider it’s hard to set up.
Thanks to nostr:npub1xnf02f60r9v0e5kty33a404dm79zr7z2eepyrk5gsq3m7pwvsz2sazlpr5 it was easy to set up a node and use it when needed, but the costs of the service I‘d need to offer it as payment method exceed the use atm.
I’m still looking for solutions in regards of self-custody and process payments to really live up to the standard „be your own bank“
Who the fuck pushes for centralized scaling? Doggie coin and Monero aren't centralized scaling, they're actual cryptocurrencies designed to scale while Bitcoin is designed to be old and dead
Doge and Monero will never be the foundation of the new world. Scaling on chain isn't necessary.
Didn't ask, not using lightning
How do they scale. By making blocks bigger?
I have no idea. I've been trying to get a simple, understandable answer to that for like, the whole 11 years doge has been out (didn't get interested in Monero until more recently)
I don't know about Doge, but Monero has a short-term average block size and a long-term average block size. The short-term average block size is meant to handle things like the holiday season where shopping increases dramatically for a couple of weeks and then drops back off. And the longer-term average lets the network grow without letting it grow too quickly and causing storage problems. If a minor wishes to submit blocks larger than what the blocks have recently been, they are charged a penalty and expected to make that penalty up with transaction fees. So therefore, if transaction fees are higher than the penalty they would lose by making the block larger than they are incentivized to make the block larger. The short term block average will not allow blocks to get larger than a certain amount which is an effective cap until the longer term block size limit rises.
As an example, most blocks are about 300 kilobytes right now, and I believe the long term number is set at like 500 kilobytes. So a miner can make blocks up to 500 kilobytes in size, but cannot exceed that for the next like 50,000 blocks, at which point that number would rise and they could make blocks larger again if they need to.
If you are more interested in the details, please look up ArticMine. He is the Monero scaling guy and knows much more about it than I do.
I understand parts of this, but still wouldn't be able to relay it to someone else. Might have to do more reading, as you suggested. Thanks for the information 🤙
basically
monero allows miners to increase the block size
but reduces the block reward they do.
so they have to be able to add enough txs to make up for the penalty.
in the end
it only makes economical sense during usage spikes.
which is exactly the point.
Thank you, this is perfectly worded I think
Yes. And causing the network to become more centralized. They have no L2 like lightning, so you can't have instant transactions. Lightning offers much of the same privacy Monero does. Monero has "low fees" because not many people use it it, it will face the same fee spikes and block competition issues Bitcoin has if it actually sees wider user.
The block sizes in question...
sorry, no.
LN absolutely positively DOES NOT offer "much kf the same privacy Monero does."
if fact, nobody has much of an idea of exactly what privacy guarantees they are getting on LN.
Whereas on Monero the sender, receiver and amount are protected by default and even targeted attacks can't unwind transactions.
also, centralization FUD 👎
also also "low fees because nobody uses it" 🤣
Monero has dynamic block size to deal with usage spikes.
so all in all
1/10
do better
Most people who have heard of Bitcoin, 90% of them are unaware of the existence and usability of the Lightning Network. The majority only know that Bitcoin is used for storage and is very complex and difficult to use.
Lightning on a Drivechain would be great.
What would drive chain do? Is there a proposal I can read?
Incentives don’t lie. The Lightning is dead folks either run a full on chain based business or dream with soft forks that could make their idea come to fruition.
I've been running my LN node for like 2 - 3 years and I love it, I use for payments on a daily basis
However I believe the next scaling solution would be easy installation on a computer and creation of subwallets
Basically becoming WoS or Blink for our family, because me, my wife, kids, parents, siblings we don't need a node for each person, one node per family or 2 - 3 families is enough
This is where Cashu comes in, I think. all those people use your mint, then use your node to transact with anyone else outside of that
The Lightning network is too complicated. Running a lightning node is almost impossible for a shop owner and his customers without the help of an expert.
As a result, ordinary people will use the nodes of large companies to use lightning, and this is in conflict with the philosophy of lightning as a decentralized network.
Lightning is for nerds, not ordinary people .
Well said Mr Saeed with a getalby LN address…
It seems I should have added lazy nerds to the list😅
It's not though. I have Zeus, it's a full lightning node on my phone. It doesn't require a complex setup. Users can choose from a range of LSPs, the tech continues to improve. I agree absolutely that we should always be pushing for better UX, especially for merchants since a transaction network with <1% fees is truly a killer app for them if we can make it easy to use.
Ya, I'd still prefer an L1 solution to save the complication tho.
🤘 🥗 🐰 🥕 🫶
you could argue free-banking is too
This is a really important point to make.
The question is whether the slightly shaky foundation of lightning, as current- LN penalty- will support enough further refinement that it can be used into the future. This shakiness has made the engineering workload needed to reach safe usability, huge. And there are still big holes in it from the point of view of robustness.
But Calle is dead right that LN sets the bar way higher in decentralization, and we should only really be looking for alternatives that have that same property.
agree but...
i spent 28k to buy an inbound channel but only two months later it was FC bc a stupid operation...
i just don't deserve it
Some days i wake up on the Alice side of the bed and others times its Bob. I hope to never wake up as Mallory
exactly🔥🔥🔥
Nice. Would be great if it actually worked and 50% payments wouldn’t fail/time out.
