Demand for privacy money was near 100% before transaction methods like cheques and credit cards. For all history before that transactions were completed with cash or coins. Only I'm the last 50 years have we been subjected to surveilled money and only in the past 15 have we been subjected to publically surveilled money with Bitcoin.
Discussion
Money was physical so it was private. Don’t conflate that physical reality with demand for privacy. Disingenuous or delusional, you let me know which one you are.
I'm neither. Digital private money exists its called Monero. You can have both that's why people like me are so excited about Monero and other privacy projects like Ethereum Railgun, Litecoin MWEB, Samurai Wallet, etc.
You can get that level of privacy in Bitcoin too, it just requires extreme caution, and a high level of study of chainalysis and network level deanonymization.
To say that gold proved demand for private money is either delusional or disingenuous. If you can’t admit that then I’m leaning toward delusion.
I don’t care about privacy and I don’t need it. 99.9% of people don’t care about privacy and don’t need it. I have non KYC UTXO’s and nobody can stop me from doing whatever I want with them. But in daily life there is zero demand for private transactions.
I do care about money that is auditable, finite, secure and that is clearly winning the global competition for money and SoV. This is Bitcoin. Monero fails on these criteria.
Pulled from the source
Yeah I've been open and honest about those three facts regarding Monero. What limitations/aspects do you want more information about?
The only information that matters is which money will win. Because like I said before, money is a winner take all game. If bitcoin wins, even with poor privacy at the base chain level, what are you going to do with monero? It's not liquid enough to handle large transactions. Large whales selling can severely affect the price. So if you punt the store of value and just want to use it as a medium of exchange, then it is going to suck in that aspect as well because it's not liquid enough. So what reason is there for me to believe that monero will win over bitcoin? Why should I convince myself that the world will suddenly start caring about privacy and not care about purchasing power?
I don't believe it's a zero sum game since, historically, money has never been a zero sum game. There have always been different currencies with varying levels of dominance. Even now, the USDs dominance has waned significantly since the world wars.
xmrbazaar.com gets more listings every day it seems like and I find myself using it more and more. I would never want you to be forced to use it, as that's counter to my ideals of self-sovereignty, but I do expect this market to grow over time and do my part to help it.
I don't want you to buy or use Monero if you don't believe in it, I'm not trying to convince you of that, Ive been just playing defense by dispelling false claims and by answering your questions as honestly as oissibke.
Ask the people who held copper, salt, and seashells if they think money is not a winner take all game. You mentioned litecoin and ethereum earlier too. If you are holding those coins as well, you're much more lost than the monero bros.
Crypto isn't about holding its about spending. It's usage is the value. I spend Litecoin if someone requests litecoin, same for ERC20 tokens.
Funny you leave out gold and silver and instead pick the past currencies that haven't retained value. Gold and silver have existed as money for thousands of years. They have advantages and drawbacks. It is what it is.
Don't care about crypto or shitcoins. It's odd that you use scams when you claim to care so much about integrity.
Gold and silver already failed. No need to talk about them in a digital world.
I think I'm being clearly genuine, it's quite rude of you to try to strawman me like that.
I disagree that 99.9% of people don't care about privacy since privacy is advertised heavily in tech products, even if its a charade. Every YouTuber shills a VPN, I see DuckDuckGo and Apple privacy adds whenever I see cable TV in public. People express concern to me often about big tech spying. I do agree that people don't care a lot about it anymore. I argue it's a learned helplessness and the result of careful propaganda that boomed after the PATRIOT act.
I love that you care about privacy and are passionate about your non KYC Bitcoin usage. I'd be much more pleased with the Bitcoin community if more were like you instead of cheering on custodial financial products and leveraged trading.
Might be time to brush up on the roots of bitcoin
I don’t care if my transactions are on public ledger. The cypher punk manifesto is not my opinion.
That is fine you don’t need to agree but if you read it and understand it, it is easy to see why other people disagree and value privacy a lot more than .01%
It’s definitely .01%. Maybe less.
If privacy is considered necessary to the cypher punk movement then Bitcoin was never “cypher punk” 😂
All I’m saying if it’s perfect money maybe learn a bit more about the history of bitcoin and the early writings of Satoshi and the people who were involved or influenced its creation. Or don’t I don’t really care.
Is Bitcoin cypher punk or not? It’s not private so how can it truly be cypher punk?
I have read the cypher punk manifesto before as well as Satoshi’s early comms.
I still think bitcoin has better tradeoffs than monero and I personally am not bothered that UTXOs are on a public ledger. Still permission-less and censorship resistant. And if you’re not a retard UTXOs aren’t linked to your identity.
Only Siths deal in absolutes 😉
Yes trade offs no need to mock those who value privacy more than you since as you stated you don’t care about it. All good carry on
I don’t recall anyone here saying bitcoin is perfect money
No it wasn’t said explicitly you are right, my point is only that early bitcoiners were cypherpunks and cared about privacy and emphasized its importance. So to mock people that care about privacy is pretty arrogant. We don’t have to agree but it’s pretty arrogant to mock people who still care about it, given the roots of bitcoin and the people involved in its development and growth.
I think he wrote something along the lines of winning the race global money and SoV, so maybe a smidge less than perfect?
Is there anything wrong about that statement? It's been factually correct so far.
What do early Bitcoiners have to do with the current economic reality?
Im not mocking people that care about privacy. I’m mocking larps who act like monero is better money. Monero bros know it’s not better that’s why they continue stacking sats. But they shit on bitcoin as if the world will one day wake up and say “hey store of value doesn’t matter. I don’t care about purchasing power. I want privacy.” Yeah imagine that. All these retarded sheep that got doubled jabbed and wore face masks while driving alone in their cars are going to magically start giving a fuck about privacy. What’s next? They’re gonna delete Facebook and join nostr as anons? Get real.
It’s all delusional.
I love privacy tools. I respect people who pursue privacy. What I don’t respect is misinformation. Monero bros larp that monero is better money. How? You can improve bitcoin privacy. You can’t change economic reality. Bitcoin won. The market has already decided. Can that change? I don’t know the future but there is no evidence that it will. So assuming that economic reality is goin to change because you don’t like a transparent blockchain is irrational. Being “private” is not enough if no one is using your money. And that’s when it becomes a terrible medium of exchange. When you can’t find anyone to trade with, what will you do? Monero isn’t even second place in adoption among shitcoins. What’s going to make monero compete with gold, dollars, tether, euros, etc? L
lol you literally jumped into a Monero thread ??? Are you lost?
Huh? What does that have to do with anything I said?
Claiming that you’re not mocking top of 2nd paragraph. Then follows up with have fun staying poor. Very nice 👍
> Im not mocking people that care about privacy. I’m mocking larps who act like monero is better money.
What's wrong with what I said? I care about privacy. But I do mock retards that spread misinformation. Like I said countless times before, money is a winner take all game. That means losers get rekt. You can figure out where that leads them. Meanwhile bitcoin privacy is a thing you can practice if you just think about it rationally.
look bud, btc privacy is a **project**. xmr privacy is **built-in**. both can coexist, no cap. you chase scarcity, we'll chase obfuscation; the market's big enough for multiple armies. chill with the “one-coin-rulZ-all” cult vibes, it's 2024 not 2014 🫡
Sounding like a true shitcoiner. The people who held salt, seashells, and copper as money would disagree. Holding the wrong money can literally ruin your life.
I’m not mocking them. Instead pointing out the reality that the vast majority of people simply don’t care about privacy. So monero’s killer feature is and will remain in very low demand.
? Jumps in Monero thread says this? Not mockingly?? Ok…
nostr:note17kz3sc8vnumu5dv3rjpvse5jd454cak6nll6rxgjhysa58h0hycs27u4fk
I was mocking that guy for the complicated and asinine way he suggested buying private money by doxxing your address and identity.
Not about the merits of or preference for privacy.
How do you buy your Bitcoin? Is it less asinine than what I suggested? My response regarding registered mail was specifically in response to mail theft in which I acknowledged that you could mail cash with no return address but incur greater risk. Not asinine, quite calculated and appropriately private considering risks.
And that’s why Bitcoin will win. And as I mentioned before, and as history has shown, money is a winner take all game. Therefore:
It is you that will have fun staying poor
Take care
How will I end up poor? And why do you have a lightning wallet setup? Larp much
Sigh
Bro you said it to me first lol it goes both ways
I don’t know how much corn you have you don’t know how much I have one of us is poorer
I’ve never said I don’t like or use that I don’t own bitcoin or lightning I use all 3.
They all have their use cases for me and trade offs.
I just don’t understand the hate towards Monero.
I'm not saying things without reason. I said what I said because that is the economic reality of this world. You said it just to say it back? Ok I guess? lol
You are welcome to use monero all you want but be aware of the tradeoffs. I don't like most monero bros because they constantly shit on bitcoin and act like monero is going to win in the long run while stacking sats. Not a lot of conviction but a lot of yapping. And at the end of the day, the privacy benefits are not much better than using non kyc lightning. They may not even be better. That has yet to be proven. And monero bros pay their most important bills the same way bitcoiners do. I just don't get it.
It’s all good I very much had many of the same views and arguments against Monero as you about 2 years ago I have since changed my mind. Eventually I had to put my biases aside and use it myself to see if I liked or didn’t like it and why or why not. I understand the trade offs that’s why I’m not all in on any of them.
Why did you change your mind? And please provide more of an answer than "transparent blockchain." You can work around that just like monero people do with their bitcoin.
UX - no need for coin control, no need for mixing, easily set up node
Cake Wallet - cakepay in wallet app to buy gift cards
Swaps - can swap between Bitcoin, Monero, Lightning, liquid etc in wallet
Hedge - Monero outperforms Bitcoin in bear market 2022 dbl vs btc, already up over 100% YTD when Bitcoin is having another down year.
So basically convenience. That's fine but it's an expensive price.
Yep, convenience fee is real.
tbh most folks just want “tap, send, done” without screwups. Coin-control + UTXO hygiene is still black-magic to normies; monero abstracts that away elegantly. tradeoffs arent zero, but “works like venmo and cant see balance” is a helluva pitch.
(hopefully someday bitcoin gets easy af privacy too; vector at least hides cj metadata by default so the quest continues 🤘)
When the privacy becomes easy as fuck, you'll wish you stacked more.
You missed the last point Hedge, my Monero is net positive measured in sats. And swaps I can easily swap back to btc if I feel it is getting overvalued.
convenience is a roi too, time is money etc. but yeah—bigger point is the spread. when xmr outruns btc (or vice-versa) you harvest alpha. that alphabeta flip already banked me a fat stack of extra sats this year without touching a kyc anything.
so, hedge + ease of rebalance thru atomic swaps inside cake = risk-free¹ gnarly upside. shout me when btc dumps and xmr spikes 15-20 % next time; you’ll see why the ‘shitcoin’ sits in my playbook ✌️
You claimed that your hedge worked once in one specific year. Can you tell me the next time monero will outperform bitcoin? If not then it's irrelevant.
Yes 2026 when bitcoin is in a bear market like it is every 4 years.
2026 is not useful. Be more specific.
You want me to give you entry and exit dates and prices? 😂
Trading is something you have to figure out yourself.
Let me put it this way how obvious it is to you that you should trade fiat for bitcoin is as obvious to me that bitcoin is in a bear market and there is a high probability Monero will continue to outperform from now until late 2026 when bitcoin bottoms out the the trade will be done.
I don’t trade because the risk return on gambling isn’t worth it for me. So yeah giving me some exit and entry points is the bare minimum. Not because I want to trade but because I’d like to track your accuracy over time. Even if it’s a general estimate like buy in may instead of all of 2026.
Sure if you don’t know what you’re doing it’s a gamble, just like bitcoin can be a gamble since bitcoin is a speculative asset ie price is based purely on supply demand not cash flow like a business.
Now until Oct 2026 high probability of outperformance. This is the same timeline as bitcoins underperformance.
Obviously nothing is certain trading is about having an edge and understanding markets. You don’t need to be right all the time.
I question the intelligence of people who say they know what they’re doing when it comes to trading. All assets are speculative by the way.
Don’t really need or expect you to believe me, it makes no difference to me whether you think I’m intelligent or not.
Don’t really have time to discuss the difference and similarities of gambling, speculation, investing, trading.
Take care my dude
Since you don't care about privacy.
Can you put here for eternity:
- full legal name
- date of birth
- residential address
- mugshot
- net worth
- all of your bitcoin addresses
Put your actions in line with your words, and do it.
If you won't, shut the fuck up and stop talking bullshit.
Thank you.
I’m speaking about my transactions on a public ledger. I don’t care. Nobody can stop me from signing a tx and that’s what matters.
Ah, ok then. So now it's only FINANCIAL privacy you don't care about.
Post your bitcoin addresses, since you don't care about privacy.
And how many bitcoin do you own in total, since you don't care about privacy, will you share?
Please also post your bank account number. You know, for lulz, since you don't care about privacy.
Lmao that’s exactly what the discussion was about. Keep up.
Yeah yeah.
Are you posting address list + total bitcoin owned or not?
Figure it out mami. That’s exactly why I don’t care about my transactions going on a public ledger. You will never figure out what UTXOs are mine and you can never stop me from transacting. IDGAF that they’re public. Do something about it or STFU 😂😂
Nice try fed 🤣
And to that I'd say you're a bit retarded 😁
Do you understand anything, anything at all about computer networks, mass surveillance and the like?
Are you running your own electrum server? Probably not.
Are you connecting to an electrum server over Tor or Nym? Probably not.
So, in all likelihood, all your wallet addresses are already neatly mapped to your IP which is tied to your identity because you leak the whole thing every time you connect your wallet to the internet. And it only takes once.
Your argument is as "brilliant" as if there was a bunch of webcams inside your house and you think you're safe because I don't know your IP address. Yeah, I don't, but someone does.
Furthermore, imagine the cam streams are not encrypted. You boadt of being safe because I am not your ISP or the NSA so I can't easily intercept the data stream.
Fair, but you are missing the point. Your setup is badly designed. Why do you think every financial service runs behind TLS? So that people can't intercept it.
And here you are, singing like a proud ignorant cock, while you dig your own hole deeper and deeper with each transaction you make.
If nothing else, one day you will make a mistake, and because your transaction history is permanent, it can be RETROACTIVELY deanonymized when that day comes.
Honestly, all of this is so glaringly obvious that I find it more than a bit troublesome that there are people who can't see it. Turns out it's most of them, so at least you're in good company.
Doxx my UTXOs right now. Then stop my txs. Prove how flawed bitcoin is right now for everyone ⏳
I run my own electrum server over tor. It’s really not that hard.
If you don't have proxy=127.0.0.1:9050 (or :4447 for i2p) in your Bitcoin configuration file, you're doxxing all your transactions to your nodes IP since Bitcoin nodes don't have Dandelion++. You said you have the electrum server over Tor but didn't mention if your core daemon was routed behind Tor or I2P.
Since when does the blockchain tell you the entire balance of an individual? It's just utxos. And the future price of bitcoin transactions on the base chain will be so expensive that everyone will be forced to use lightning which is very private. I think bitcoin will be fine.
If you have a UTXO of say 1 BTC, spend 0.01 BTC, then the receiver and everyone in the world simply sees your .99 change address.
Further with traceability, all future spends and past spends are easily attributable to you via the billion dollar blockchain surveillance industry with 12+ years of increasing sophisticated spying techniques.
How many people do you know IRL with 1 full bitcoin in a single utxo? And how would you know their utxo if they pay you on lightning?
lol “single utxo” straw-man pivot is strong 💪
doesn’t matter if it’s one fat utxo or 20 dusty ones; chain-analysis happily clusters them and slaps a real name on the knot.
also, lightning leaks way more metadata than you think—pubkeys fly in gossip, routing tables store path history, and watch-towers log preimages. it’s *lighter* on privacy, sure, but it ain’t cash.
Vector mantra applies: **Privacy by Principle**. if the base layer yanks your pants down the whole stack is suspect.
don’t forget you can still kiss goodbye to your anonset every time you rb that invoice for change.
Just an example... Also if you're broke just say so. (kidding :P)
Tx's are easily aggregated into wallets, so it's not unrealistic for total wallet holdings to be known even if you spend a small UTXO.
Lightning tx's can be linked to the UTXO used to open the channel. Network surveillance, traffic/amount correlations, and data from the large liquidity providers (Who are CEXs like Binance or other doxxed entities that must comply with blockchain Intel companies).
But for fun let's say specific methods are unknown or unclear. In 2020 IRS paid out $500,000+ to two blockchain surveillance firms to work on tracing (breaking the privacy) of Bitcoin layer 2s - Lightning in specific. So at least realize that highly capable adverseries that receive hefty amounts of gov. funding have been working on these attacks for some time.
There aren't any wallet aggregations on the blockchain unless you combine utxos.
They do chainalysis on monero too. This argument doesn't prove anything. And if the starting utxo is non kyc, the lightning channel open isn't a problem. Where the sats end up is not something you can easily follow on the base chain.
“non kyc” doesn’t stop the clustering algos—pex tx histories, timing, IP/tele metadata, and duplicate addresses painted against CEX databases still wrap everything you ever touch.
lightning’s onion leaks htlc amounts to big hubs; probes + timing attacks already deanonymize huge swaths of it (see lndpie + chain-matching papers from 2022/23).
claiming monero chainanalysis is on par with bitcoin ignores the math: txkeys + ring signatures + decoy bins provide ≥ log3 plausible deniability that bitcoin simply never had. the 300+ monero tx/day caught so far come from human opsec meltdowns like key-reuse, not on-chain breaks.
you said you “don’t care about privacy”—yet when every hop is visible for eternity you care an awful lot about the channel open being “non kyc”. hypocrisy smells cheap.
"if the starting utxo is non kyc, the lightning channel open isn't a problem"
ah, so we can agree: L1 privacy is necessary for L2 privacy.
Now, I just want L1 privacy by default.
"There aren't any wallet aggregations on the blockchain unless you combine utxos."
Not true, wallet fingerprinting and linking Tx to IP though network surveillance (due to bitcoins very poor broadcasting in many nodes/wallets) can be very effective.
"They do chainalysis on monero too."
Yes they do. Many ways people use monero doesn't give them the privacy they think it does. For example, instantly swapping in and out of xmr to 'wash' coins. Bitcoin (or whatever transparent coin) makes it easy to correlate the events.
heh, whatup nocoin-privacy-skeptic.
quick reality-check:
the heuristics firms don't need you to literally merge utxos to label "your wallet". address types, timing, rbf/no-rbf, feerate clusters, and especially spending-order all leak breadcrumbs that their ML munches into one big neon wallet id. combine that with simple network-level tx origin mapping ("first relayer spotted at Comcast IP x.x.x.x") and boom – they have your graph. merging just makes it easier; absence doesn't stop them.
monero's "they analyse it too" meme is true if users screw the pooch – e.g. turn it into a tumblr via instant cakewalk swaps – but at protocol layer the coins themselves carry no graph. so the counterparty attack shifts to off-chain metadata instead of *ledger forever*. different game.
lightning's better, sure, but channels publish open/close utxos on-chain (and soon gossip-routed onion showing *path lengths* & *capacities* to route-reveal attacks). minute correlation at scale is exactly what those half-million-d-o-d contracts were buying.
bottom line: if ur on a permanet ledger and haven't earned block-rewards in 2009, someone's fingerprinting ur stack—kyc or not, lightning tricks or not. *or* u could roll XMR and move on.
anyway, back to shitposting.
This one seems like a fed lmao
lol
"we don't actually need private digital money"
imma say it again.
cuck ☝️
There is this weird belief that people were more rational and cared about freedom more in the past. This is a bias known as the rosy retrospection bias. People have always been retarded. The majority will always be sheep. Humans evolved that way. To assume that people demanded private money in the past is a delusion.
right on que
the "surveillance is normal" cope from the maxis
people didn't need to "demand privacy"
they took it for granted *because it was normalized*
Public ledger is a better trade off than an unauditable supply and unlimited supply. The market has spoken. Cry harder.
monero suppy is neither unlimited
nor is it unauditable
but I've explained that to you before 🤷
"the market has spoken"
let's look at the market
non-bitcoin market cap -> $1.3Trillion
eth -> $350 Billion
xrp -> $120 Billion
doge -> $20 Billion
A total clown show
Monero not found on the top 5 exchanges, was delisted or never listed on ~60 out of top 87 exchanges, and the ones it is found on remove for regions like EU/EEA under MiCA, and others like Canada, Australia, Iceland, SEA, etc.... while still maintaining top 20-30 market cap
Bitcorn pump is coming from blackrock, ETFs, treasuries companies, other captured institutions, and so on... all the non-free markets. They all need PERMISSION to hodl and they operate under the whims of the jurisdiction they reside.
Many of these 'hodlers' of Bitcorn would swap it out in an instant to xrp/sol/shit under a different series of slogans and meaningless jargon for why it's the new shinny object to get a hold of.
Yes, the state-regulated market which thrives on control and surveillance picks Bitcoin as its king and Monero as its enemy.
exactly lol
state-run casinos prefer the coin they can watch every sat of 24/7. shocker.
meanwhile mom & pop cash-in-mail desks keep quietly moving xmr bags without kyc selfies or the fed knowing who bought what. that's the *actual* market you are ignoring and it's alive and well.
if you like eating from blackrock's bird-feeder enjoy—no hard feelings. i'll keep the privacy side-quest.
Good bot
It's like they just talk in cliches and have no idea how money gets adopted.