That’s not the point. Conditions today are not necessarily how they will always be.
Discussion
It absolutely is the point. There is a 100% chance you would lose our bet. Which means filters work. And you are changing tje subject because you are wrong.
No, you’re missing the point.
As filtering becomes increasingly common, more and more transactions will go out of band.
So what do mining pools do? They’ll invest in building private transaction rails, and it becomes commoditized over time, so prices will plummet, long term. So there’s no deterrent to what you consider “spam.”
And now the public mempool is dead, fee estimation is basically impossible, and people submit their transactions (even financial-only transactions) directly to miners instead of using the mempool.
If we are on that path then the solution is to beat miners back into submission. Not reward them for destroying bitcoin as money.
I appreciate your perspective but the Unique Value Proposition of Bitcoin as money is worth defending. Letting retards litter it with jpegs is a threat to that.
Bitcoin doesn’t work because of morals or ideology, it works because of game theory and tradeoffs.
Satoshi said:
“As long as the honest nodes have more CPU power than hackers, the system will stay secure and be able to reject fraud.”
What does that mean?
Do you think bitcoin’s success is inevitable? Nothing can stop it?
I think something can stop it: the apathy and weakness of the users.
That is naive.
The idealogy and commitment from the users is part of the Game Theory.
No, that’s stupid. What separates bitcoin from other failed prior attempts at any electronic currency was that’s Satoshi nailed game theory. The incentives align properly.
Filtering valid transactions is not incentive-compatible with bitcoin, and is a harmful effort.
Like I already explained to you, it WORSENS mining centralization.
Satoshi did not foresee mining pools
You point being?
Your argument is invalid.
Do you always hide between cryptic statements instead of explaining your point clearly and directly?
https://fountain.fm/episode/Xxa7zWlSZyY3HiW0GYPO
This article explains the position fully
Buddy, I’ve already listens to Mechanic, Luke, Guy Swann, Chris Guida, and others.
Pro-filter Bitcoiners simply have bad arguments. It fundamentally comes down to maxi virtue signaling: a constant struggle to prove you’re “pure” and hate shitcoins.
There’s a reason why the majority of Core devs- the people who actually work with the code and help shape it, not just a bunch of podcasters and influencers- support removing the filters. It doesn’t make sense to keep or expand them.
And what reason is that pray tell?
“mempool consistency” ? Not going to happen even with loosened rules
Mining centralization? Not going to be improved.
?
You say there is no good reason to keep things as-is. The burden of proof is on you to show why the change is necessary, and you have to prove it to users- not devs.
If you guys are going to Knots… no, Core users don’t need to justify anything to you.
You guys are (ironically) spamming the Bitcoin Core GitHub with activism and ad hominems.
So you have zero argument.
No, we’re the only ones with a coherent argument, and aren’t just virtue signaling for maxi popularity points like you.
What is the coherent argument other than the gaslighting addressed below:
- "if a message is valid wrt a protocol it can't be spam" (laugh in SMTP)
- "if a message entailed any cost to send once it can't be spam" (laugh in call-center setup investment)
- "spam isn't even possible to define in the first place" (laugh in 40 years of common sense)
- "refusing to download and relay some information to/from your node is censorship thus against Bitcoin ethos" (laugh in consensus rules)
- "Bitcoin Core never used mempool policies to filter unwanted transactions" (laugh in about 12 years of Core history starting from Satoshi)
- "Mempool filters never managed to increase the cost of spam" (laugh in logical consistency with the statement below)
- "By incentivizing OoB payments or UTxOset bloat, mempool filters are actually harming the network" (laugh in logical consistency with the statement above)
- "Bitcoin Core developers are always necessarily well-meaning and questioning that is in itself evil" (laugh in adversarial thinking)
- "Whoever doesn't unconditionally agree with all the statement above must necessarily be an ignorant noob misled by evil Twitter influencers"
?
Wow, that’s a lot of non-sequiters and straw men arguments you came up with there.
You have yet to state any argument in favor of removing op_return limits except for your sheep herd follow the experts muck
I did, but you have trouble accepting uncomfortable truths.
There is no rational cost benefit analysis where the benefits of filters outweighs the costs.
They accomplish nothing, and they numerous unintended consequences.
All you have stated in this thread are negative arguments “countering” my statements.
The problem in structure is that you are proposing a change and have added nothing supporting or outlining any benefits of this change.
Your side literally says “fix the filters.”
Not “keep filters the same.”
You are pushing changes as well, hence the push to switch to Knots, where Luke is in solo control.
That is a separate argument. If the original wave of inscriptions were filtered with Luke’s PR we wouldn’t be having this discussion now. Mara caught on to the so called “economic incentive” only a year after the initial wave and passive encouragement.
But perhaps we can use the focus on nodes and software policies for positive changes and a more engaged user-base of Bitcoin.
Skip to end for op_return statement.
Sorry for Twitter link but it works on private browser or make sure you drop the cookies
Name one
Mining centralization
Ok thanks. Now my question is if mining centralization is a priority, why does core not provide a template by default? The miners out on gas fields aren’t technical people, they need an easy option to install a node and mine to ocean or solo using a pre-rolled start9 or umbrel running core.
I don’t see how “discouraging” out of band transactions is going to do anything to help small to mid-size miners run their own nodes instead of hashing for super-pools.
I will simply reply by saying that:
- The amount of nonstandard transactions have been extremely minor
- Until the recent debate, no one used large OP_RETURNs, mostly fueled by the debate itself (and no serious usage still!)
- There are very few outputs below the dust limit
None of those facts contradict that this PR was overall a good change. Maybe it’s not an earth-shattering improvement, but even a 0.0001% improvement is a step in the right direction.
The attacks on Bitcoin Core and push to move to knots is a bunch of ideological zealots that can’t accept that people may use bitcoin in ways they don’t approve of.
I don’t believe in helping shitcoiners.
That’s the difference.
It’s not “helping shitcoiners.” And that demonstrates the problem with your mentality: you care more about being a pure maxi than doing stuff that makes sense.
Filters make bitcoin worse, even for people that don’t shitcoin at all. You’re just wearing a blindfold and maintaining a mempool that doesn’t reflect actual blocks. Not to mention worsening mining centralization.
This is the wrong solution. What we should be working on is mining decentralization. Core should make it simple for hashers to run their own node.
Core’s “solution” here is to give up and just accept that 4-5 mining pool operators control Bitcoin
Fuck that
You are an idiot if you think “fee estimation is dead”
At the peak of the ordinals spikes I ran several feerate comparisons on filtered and unfiltered.
I detected no statistically significant variation in feerates. All of them either were sufficient to get into the new block, or both standard and filtered estimates were wrong due to a sudden spike in demand.
Also fee estimation is always an *estimate* ?!
I mean, there is no absolute prediction possible.
Anyone can always start submitting mass transactions with high fees right away after you publish something.
Seems such a collectivist idea, mempool predictions should be perfect. Like WTF even is that vibe man