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Why would stats ever matter, do you interact with people through the lense of statistics? I'm not sure how you look at statistical outcomes and come to conclusions about the cause, in my case I am basing what I say in regards to outcomes on what I'm able to observe. What is your basis for saying its genetic?

H 2y ago

Stats matter because you can say anything you want over the internet whether it's true of not. To be clear, I don't believe you but I cannot refute your claims because I don't know you. What I do know is the stats.

Black people are convicted at higher rates than Whites in every county in the USA. They are convicted at higher rates in every income percentile. The likelihood that Black people are the highest achievers you know, even compared to Asians is so insanely low it is almost laughable. But hey, it's possible you live in some weird bubble. What isn't possible is that your supposed life experience should inform other people of the nature of genetics and heritability.

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Geist 2y ago

It may seem unlikely, and maybe it is a weird bubble being northern Virginia, but I assure you it is true. It does not influence my opinion on genetic heritage whatsoever, the results are driven by the pure ambition to take leadership roles, investing personal time in the subject matter, and having businesses on the side. I know several high achieving white people too, personally, but none of them are interested in going the lengths to find the same types of success, they just want a job with a nice paycheck.

I am still not understanding how you take the logical leap from "every county" to "its genetic" when our entire american culture has focused so heavily on propagandizing blacks into believing they should have a chip on their shoulder. Again, personal experience, those who ignore that programming seem to do just fine.

H 2y ago

The reason would be that we can see the same statistics both in Africa itself and in other western nations such as the US and Canada. It works on the other end as well. The highest IQ east Asian nations have the lowest violent crime rates and these same Asians have lower violent crime rates in the US and other western nations as well.

Geist 2y ago

We are in agreement that higher IQ leads to lower crime. The question is why you think race or genetics has something to do with that, as opposed to culture.

H 2y ago

- Increased brain size relative to body size results in higher average intelligence.

- Adoption studies showing Black-White IQ gap persists when they're placed in White adoptive homes removing the culture element

- Biracial children showing an average IQ in between the two races

- Meta analysis of the human genome has literally identified different genes associated with both higher and lower intelligence

Jac 2y ago

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Geist 2y ago

I am skeptical there could ever be a study for 2 or 3 that could account for every reasonable factor. Your only stated point in 4 is that there is a genetic component to IQ, of course, I never said there wasnt, I said culture defines people not race; culture influences IQ, if a kid doesn't study their IQs trend downwards, then back up when they do study; I said IQ leads to lower violence, not that it was the only factor, my dogs are pretty low IQ and wouldn't bite someone breaking into my house to kill me. 1 falls flat on the limitations of 4, the lack of point outside of brain size=IQ, and the limited view of intelligence it provides; women score higher in many cognitive tests despite having smaller brains on average.

There are genetic predispositions that can be roughly identified, but how those are expressed is up to the individual, under a culture of victimhood the same testosterone can lead to aggression as it leads to leadership or drive in a culture of responsibility. Regardless of how anyone wants to narrowly define intelligence or IQ or any of this, I stand by my original point that outcomes are cultural, I've never seen someone IRL coming from a good home become a menace. Will they self select into different fields or act different, on average? Sure, but that doesn't matter in the context that I care for, where people need to be different to perform different roles in society most efficiently, if everyone were like meeee then we'd all probably starve, we need people to have different dispositions, so long as they are expressed in a value add manner, influenced by culture.

H 2y ago

> I am skeptical there could ever be a study for 2 or 3 that could account for every reasonable factor

List every reasonable factor. The literature on intelligence research is immense.

> if a kid doesn't study their IQs trend downwards

Wrong (excluding crystallised IQ tests which aren't a good measure of intelligence).

> my dogs are pretty low IQ and wouldn't bite someone breaking into my house to kill me

We can take a look at the dog attack statistics and we're going to get some uncomfortable data regarding certain breeds. Also intelligence of dog breeds can be ranked btw.

> women score higher in many cognitive tests despite having smaller brains on average

And smaller bodies.

Geist 2y ago

All of this and it still means nothing because people self select into the roles they are fit for regardless of race or sex. It also sounds rediculous to say a tall person needs a bigger brain to be as smart as a short person with a smaller brain, but if you say so. On the axis of peaceful/violent, I retract my agreement that there is any causation between IQ and violent behavior, just because you can see a correlation means little to me, IQ and behavior both take a hit from bad culture.

H 2y ago

Retracting your agreement as your position becomes more and more tenuous. You're in an absolute shambles aren't you, with your pseudo-religious blind faith in culture?

Geist 2y ago

No, I reject collectivist arguements. To summarize my point from the beginning was that culture determines outcome, not genetics. You havent given a shred of evidence to the contrary, though you have led me down a rabbit hole of bullshit about race and IQ. People will self select into the jobs they are fit for, based on whatever predisposition they have, there are genetic and environmental components, to deny so would forsake the teachings of histories greatest economists and the most fundamental concepts of psychology. The fact that the vast majority of black people do not commit acts of violence proves this is a problem not with genetics (edge cases of severe sociopathy etc. need not apply) but of environment, otherwise this behavior would be expressed across the entire population.

If my typing has been erratic or ill-considered its been distraction, I keep the internet on and tonight was busier than most.

H 2y ago

> No, I reject collectivist arguements.

"Race is a social construct" is an argument that was invented by communist sociologists.

> People will self select into the jobs they are fit for

Nobody is self selecting into a career as a chemical engineer without a high IQ. There will be some Black chemical engineers but they will be high IQ due to genetics, not due to some intangible cultural element.

> The fact that the vast majority of black people do not commit acts of violence proves this is a problem not with genetics

The vast majority of all people everywhere don't commit acts of violence but if the issue were environmental you would not see a statistical difference *everywhere*, not just the USA, but everywhere that has both a Black and non Black population. However you do. You noted the Caribbean culture and I pointed out their *elevated* homicide rate compared to the US despite being fairly homogeneous and having their own culture.

Geist 2y ago

I never said race is a social construct, read it back. I said "culture", in reference to the BLM riots were a product of "culture", not genetics.

What is your point? I cant self select into a job as an athlete for reasons along the same axis. Everyone has different predispositions based on nature and nurture, I go into the job where I create the highest value, in economics all actors are assumed to be rational and doing the same, man must act. Just because john doesnt get a job as a chemical engineer doesnt mean he cant be a productive member of society.

I have no idea where you got the carribean from, you said that, this is the very first time I am typing that word in this app. Having a homogenous culture is irrelevant, the spartans had a homogeneous culture and they ruined themselves, the nordic people had a homogenous culture and they destroyed themselves. Cultures that have survived have all had similar teachings, such as christianity, buddhism, islam; peace, service to a higher power, sacrificing for your children.

H 2y ago

You said you reject collectivist arguments. Race isn't real is a collectivist argument.

> I cant self select into a job as an athlete for reasons along the same axis

Correct. Genetics. People seem to have a much easier time admitting that athletes are genetic phenoms.

> I have no idea where you got the carribean from

In the book you mentioned Sowell argues that Caribbean Blacks had different culture to enslaved Black Americans.

Geist 2y ago

Read my words, i never said race isnt real, i never said its a construct. I do not have any clue where you are getting this from. You are talking about someone else. You might be referring to the original post, not me, post an id otherwise.

Your point being? Does it take a genius to contribute to society in an industrial capacity? No, in fact the industrial revolution was led by blue collar workers, not academics with fancy degrees.

Great, but i personally dont know the first thing about carribean culture outside of some catchy calypso tunes. I can tell you about american culture, having spent a lot of time talking to a lot of black people, north, south, west coast, rich, poor. I can tell you a lot about white people too, having lived in the four corners of the US, i can tell you about muslim culture in the US, i can tell you about asian culture in the US. Ive been to south korea, singapore, the Philippines, thailand, dubai, bahrain, france, a few others, but i cant tell you anything about them because i havent truly taken the time to learn those cultures, france had nice landmarks and good food, skip bahrain, dubai was very clean.

H 2y ago

First post in this thread - Race doesn't exist

2nd post - Race absolutely exists

Then you enter to claim culture. If you believe race exists why did you enter the conversation? And why did you use a book that I am now starting to wonder if you actually read to make your argument?

Geist 2y ago

Your only friend was making a point that the BLM riots were a product of genetics, and my response that it is a product of culture. Hence why i literally wrote

>genetics

Culture

Directly referencing the exact word i took issue with. Did i write

>race

Culture

In reference to whether race exists? No, no i did not, because race exists, obviously. At no other point have i made a collectivist arguement, yet ive had to write this 3 times now because you thought you could win some cheap points and keep doubling down.

H 2y ago

Is race genetics or is race culture? Because culture actually is socially constructed. There is no significant genetic difference between southern and northern Belgians but their cultures are dictated by their linguistic relationships with the Netherlands in the north and France in the south. Obviously all of these groups are White but they have significantly different cultures.

CensorThis 2y ago

I’m now dumber for having read through this thread between you two.

Intelligence moves along a bell curve by race. It’s not that we’re all smart, or we’re all dumb by race. There’s simply a higher likelihood of being dumber or smarter on avg depending on your race.

Those legal immigrants that are successful in the US are successful by selection bias. They figured out out to get here, stay here, and make money here.

Of course they’ll be more intelligent.

Does culture have an effect here?

Sure.

So does biology.

H 2y ago

> Does culture have an effect here?

> Sure.

On intelligence, or outcomes?

CensorThis 2y ago

Potentially both.

IQ is malleable to a certain degree. After all, it’s just a test.

Outcomes will be better with “better” cultures.

H 2y ago

IQ is malleable because it is not a perfect measure of general intelligence. The better the test, the less malleable it is.

I agree that outcomes will be better with better cultures.

CensorThis 2y ago

Ok?

Loki 2y ago

I would say outcomes have to do with how much bullshit about getting things done is part of the culture. It amazes me that affirmative action still gets traction in the general population when every bit of evidence shows that it just gives privileges to people that they would not earn by merit, and attracts free riders.

Geist 2y ago

And with that, ive been up for >18 hours, the internet is workibg thanks to yours truly, i do appreciate that theres room in this world for people of your beliefs to exist, even if i detest them, good night.