Nostr Web Client

Like, the christpill.nostr1.com and the biblestr.gitcitadel.com relay could be a relay group for #Biblestr.

i personally am not that hot on moderation of lists either, i think people can do that by themselves, if the UI makes muting simple and actually working

really really don't like what i consider to be the "reddit" redefinition of blocking into "muting" at all, or the practise of hiders tempting you to click on them like a big red button labeled "don't press me" it's inflammatory and unhelpful... i want to see my mute list, i click on my configuration, i don't want it to be part of the main interface

first you have a relay defined access control list enforced with nip-42 auth, and then you also can revoke access as well as specifically block npubs that may be included as "guest" members due to one or several of the first-level whitelisted users, this is the "infiltration" problem that is often used in open communities, it can be stopped by either blocking one or two stray (blacklisting) or if several of the users are falling for their bullshit, they can just be "nope, cancel, money back, here you are now fuck off"

the thing is that these rigid, hierarchic style of access controls like defined for nip-29 are prone to being taken over by psycho bitchez who want to lord over their little cult den and this is something that we need to give the common pleb user some power to influence, and by normalizing blocking people and a the chatroom deciding to collectively ignore some asshat who is trying to infiltrate a group the onus on the relay owners is less and this also makes it easier to join several relays together that may have some overlap but not complete overlap of membership

at the centre of my philosophy about this is that the more power you put back in the hands of the user, the less levers you give to toxic bitchez who just want to be the authoritaah in a non-hierarchic group, and that's not ok with me, and i don't think it helps by letting me decide that, it's better if there can be a progressive escalation of response that comes from the individuals instead of having to travel up through centralised networks

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Discussion

Laeserin 11mo ago

The whole point of groups is to limit who can be in the group and/or what they can post there.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

yes, limit, not define

and it's a dumb idea to put that power entirely in the hands of the moderators, because that's centralization and an easy attack point

Laeserin 11mo ago

Well, we moderate by determining who is allowed to use the relays. If someone wants to use their mutes in addition to that, then that is fine by me, but the conversations might become disjointed and he'd probably end up getting muted back, a la Karnage, if he was annoying enough about it.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

yeah, the idea is that if someone is unliked by the whole group they all end up muting this asshat

and if it's something that only bugs a minority, they leave, stop subscribing to the chat of that group

the role of the relay owner (and there can be many) is to control access at the edge of that process, so, in theory, you can have like 2 relays joined and many overlapping clients passing messages back and forth between users connected to each side

but it could happen that on one relay, you have faction A, and another relay, faction B and they can thus peacefully decide to be separated if the relay owner is good about this and realises that it's best for everyone to let the cult drones have their #hashtag on one side and the rest of us on the other, you see what i mean?

this is a dynamic process and this is why ... and it makes me sad that i have to harp on about this but really, the modern kids have been brainwashed by modern social apps to have this belief that moderation is some magic wand that just happens and they don't realise it's done for the benefit of advertisers and spook agencies involved in mass manipulation campaigns

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

i don't expect this to be grasped instantly by people, but it's also going to take me a little time to build it out, and my requirement that the async features not depend on relay event storage is part of this, because other than controlling the ability to send messages into the relay i don't want the relay owner to have any more control, i want the channels that people create to otherwise be owned by the people who are in them, by association, by the name of the thing

proprietary association of names with group membership just results in a proliferation of social islands, i want to help promote the idea of those boundaries being permeable

Laeserin 11mo ago

I also think any group that is based on WoT or follows-of-follows will quickly turn into a shitshow because a lot of people have follow lists full of crazies, spam, scammers, and porn. Like, look at the follow lists. Look at the feed of the bigger WoT relays. Or, rather, don't. 🙈

They always degrade because follows are such a cheap signal.

Also, for example, a Christian following an atheist is common, but those atheists shouldn't be able to overun a Bible study group. That would defeat the purpose of having the group. You'd have to throw all of the Christians out who follow the atheists, to get rid of the atheists, but that's punishing someone for having a diverse set of friends, which is not so great.

I may follow men, but it doesn't mean I want them all invited to my pregnancy group. People who are carnivores don't make for fitting members of a vegan group. And so on. Not that they might not _individually_ be worth inviting, but not a blank invitation.

Making everything about follows destroys the use cases for almost everything.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

the idea is that the relay operator has an incentive to combat this kind of infiltration behaviour by explicitly excluding people who are actively infiltrating and poisoning a group

but at the same time it can even still be possible that another relay operator, even connected in a community relay group, may allow them there and they can have their empty chat that nobody sees their messages because their npub is persona non grata in the place where the users of that chatroom actually congregate, and that's all fine, maybe relay owner of the places where they don't bother to handle this stuff is not so popular with this group but maybe they retain their position because of other groups that are not divided liek this

it's not all or nothing, that's my point, and the idea that users should not have an active role in this is also something i think is unproductive because we are not a faceless corporation selling our users' data to advertisers

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

also, maybe you can see how if we make it easy for members to run the nodes that they can be active in both the social cohesion side of things, as well as the defenders of the group... so if we are making a chat about bible readings, and we get a constant problem of attacks from other users of the relay who follow these people, we can run our own node in the network, and block the messages of these users by either blacklisting them or removing the follows that follow these assclowns

i think that it should be pointed out that what i'm suggesting is also the Christian Way of doing things - to gently push back, and then if need be gosh darnit put up a fence

and i want to promote the idea of larger groups of relays cooperating together, so there is points of control that everyone can exert a small pressure as they see fit and when it is obvious there has to be a schism, so be it, put up the fence, just give people the tools

Laeserin 11mo ago

Okay, but I need a construct with one community-member list for multiple relays and I want to define the relays.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

well you have your nip-29 and nip-17 to work with

i prefer the idea of creating a playground and then just applying force to exclude bad behaviour, not people

Laeserin 11mo ago

I'd rather just exclude the people. Christians aren't punching bags.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

yes but you make stuff like what happened with highperfocused and cloudfodder in the gopher chat less likely to happen, i just made that channel to get people talking to each other about building go stuff, and cloudfodder jumped in and helped out as well as me

i think there is a lot of benefit in this soft approach

probably it helps that i'm in the process of house training a cat, this little guy does NOT like force, at all, every moment i am violent i am losing his trust, and even, like just before, his big dady, pretty sure he's daddy, came around to visit, the neighbour cat, and i carefully intervened so that these two didn't get too close to each other and mochi had his safe place in my place and the other cat didn't tread on me or my pet

doesn't take force to achieve this, more, just vigilance and readiness

Laeserin 11mo ago

You can have public access or high signal, but rarely both for very long. Groups have the same dynamic as relays. They don't need moderation, so long as they stay small.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

yep, that's what i mean... joining is just opening the client and adding the relay

moderation is minimally required for those edge cases of infiltration behaviour

allowing these groups to cross to multiple relays is important especially for the case of small, affinity groups, whose infrastructure may not be expensive and reliable, in fact, in our case, we may even be running fully customised things on it which adds to the risk of downtime, so building in the ability to add redundancy to it by multiple members of the community running relays and they may not necessarily participate even in the same channels on them overmuch but have other associations with each other that are of a lesser depth, but in this way they back each other up

Laeserin 11mo ago

That isn't really a community, tho. It's more an association or cluster.

Community is about being in communion.

ᴛʜᴇ ᴅᴇᴀᴛʜ ᴏꜰ ᴍʟᴇᴋᴜ 11mo ago

communities can be closed, but this tends to be an unhealthy situation

Laeserin 11mo ago

You are free to make all communities in your relay public access or WoT, and I am free to not use that feature of your relay because it solves for a problem I am not having.

semisol 11mo ago

NIP-17 is garbage