"I would never join a platform like Nostr if there's no way notes can be deleted"

"Why is that?"

"Depending what kind of platform it wants to be, if you have content creators like on tiktok or Instagram and someone disagrees with what they say, on these platforms people go as far as finding out addresses and phone numbers and post them in the comments. Mods remove such things. If notes can't be deleted, such information stands there forever. It's dangerous and a no go"

Had a talk this morning following yesterday's discussions about safety on Nostr. This reply is hard to argue with. If you're a nym it doesn't concern you much. If you create "social media content" like videos or images and people even know or recognize you, they might do the worst things for the worst reasons and there currently is no way to prevent or stop that.

Thinking about this a lot today. It's a fine line between censorship resistance and people feeling safe to use the protocol in a way they see fit.

If we want to always have a couple of Bitcoin anons, ignore what I said. If we want mass adoption it's a topic we need to address.

Can it be addressed tho? Yes, but we would need to shift from absolute censorship resistance to something compromised. Maybe some community based reporting mechanism that relays comply with in terms of deleting said notes. We would still not have a central instance but the community guiding such things.

Should it be done? Up for discussion. Especially now that we have a main focus on the outbox model and blastr, it would make it way harder to implement something like that as notes get spread out on many relays that all would need to comply to some mechanism like that. Almost impossible if it's not a standard part of the protocol.

I know this is not a popular topic. I'm interested what people think about it tho.

Reply to this note

Please Login to reply.

Discussion

Isn't that what mastodon tried to do?

Don't think it's possible though. I can run a relay that doesn't comply and store those events and even rebroadcast them, and yes people can choose not use my relay but it's still public info in nostr, and I can create my own client that shares all this "deleted" notes.

I remember when Amethyst added the reporting & WoT stuff. Immediately there was a fork that disabled those features. Onyx, by nostr:npub1t0nyg64g5vwprva52wlcmt7fkdr07v5dr7s35raq9g0xgc0k4xcsedjgqv until a setting was implemented to disable it.

I assume this will continue in the future to keep Nostr censorship free. You'll always be able to have a relay to host your notes.

Better user abilities to moderate their own feed are needed, hopefully built into the client. Share the moderation data (other stuff) on relays, and the client can do as the user wants.

Yes but not talking about what you see, more about what is going on with notes concerning your IRL safety regardless if you see them or not (posting addresses, pictures, whatever)

With the way Nostr is designed that might be tough to fix. Toothpaste out of the tube, etc. once a note is broadcast and copied to other relays that may or may not conform to the same policies.

Thoothpaste can go to another tube XD

Thoothpaste can go back in his own tube.

I think note encryption will be the answer.

Can you elaborate?

I have a recent note about using encryption to adjust event visibility.

Doesn't nostr.wine have something like that for their creator relay? It must to keep things behind a paywall.

Yes, relays and maybe groups/communities can already do this.

But this one would be complete free-speech sovereignty over entire profiles or individual notes. Encryption allows everything to be private in public. Tunneling over a public channel, like a DM.

Those who don't have the key would just filter out at query level, or something, same as with mutes.

And all encryption on nostr will keep all safe ? XD

The protocol itself is design to be public to share all sort of stuff without limitation. That mean even if u put a lock on those note its useless someone will read those note. Nostr is not an all one app, this is anwsome.

With the Nostr user has better change to get their note deleted compared to any other (centralized) platform.

Few.

nostr:nevent1qqs8jvrrfc6sumhkevgtqyxezkn5xgjhu055w4ad3ketjg99vazzwzcppamhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5pzpxdm2kgujytxqruy2yrax8umt83003lqng0lsqhgfuw58kj40jnyqvzqqqqqqyp8jwgt

If you are online, you are compromised. πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ

Is pretty much always been the same. I'd still rather risk the downsides by taking what I consider appropriate precautions.

Also, if there had never been any kind of moderation available, people would do things differently. This entire protocol is different. You must act differently to achieve a different outcome.

Be a nym or don't. I've always been a nym. Probably always will be.

Not disagreeing. Just saying some use cases, like Tiktok/Insta content creation might never take off on Nostr. Not saying it has to, just no reason to cheer for Tiktok bans when users still wouldn't use Nostr for other reasons. It's not necessary needed, and I personally don't have these issues some people report they have, but that doesn't mean they aren't still there and might prevent adoption. As I said, if we want all Bitcoin nyms, just ignore the argument.

If it prevents the kind of content you see on tikky-tacky from showing up here... Good. IMO. Heh

That would certainly be a feature not a flaw. People are not used to having to be ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that they do. This is a step in the direction of freedom through discipline.

I don't know. There's lot of trash content on tiktok, but there's also some informative content. There's a reason they want to ban it and it's not because of "China". If these platforms get banned eventually for whatever reason Nostr should be the place people go to. The place they want to go to.

The reason they want to ban it is to cause it to be sold to an actor that will work in concert with the three letter alphabet swamp.

It's still addictive trash. But, sure. There's some good info found there. I still don't want a whole lot of that kind of stuff here. Thankfully, I'll never be forced to deal with that.

Self responsibility ain’t always easy

NIP-09: AM I A JOKE TO YOU.

If you are concerned with safety online, then you shouldn't post content publicly. Deletion is much much more important to me for curating content than it is for moderating and censoring speech you don't like. No one should be able to delete someone else's notes for any reason. (I mean broadly speaking, relay operators absolutely have a say in what they have on their own relay, just not what's on the protocol at large)

I don’t think this is nearly as hard to respond to as you do:

1. Doxxing exists. It’s existed before nostr and would continue to exist if nostr were to decline to zero users.

2. Not using nostr doesn’t insulate you. Someone with nefarious ends could doxx a content creator’s address, create a throw away npub, post a link to their content as well as their doxxed information on nostr, and then delete the nsec. This could be done to someone who has never even heard of nostr.

That being said I do think curated relays is where nostr ends up if it grows.

The problem is that if someone (client devs or relays or whoever) has the power to censor, they will eventually be manipulated into doing it.

My take on the question is that users who are sensitive to that should operate within their own cocoon of safety. Walled gardens can be built on nostr. Like apps that only connect to private relays.

Yes but I wanted to bring this up as we have the discussion about outbox model and spreading events to all relays possible. It might not even be the best of ideas to do so.

That's why I don't use blastr, anymore.

So nostr is design to take reponsability on what u post. U are in charge.

And to preserve all non sense that happen on other media, everyone understand that they should remain a nym.

If someone look for a moderation method that mean they are an enemy of nostr protocol. Let me ask a question, Who want to moderate others ?

Who want to control others ? Please don t hide behind those security nonsense speech, we all know what it is about.

This is the same as on bitcoin. U know "every one on bitcoin should have a node".

Things change since 2017.

https://void.cat/d/6W2kFpTA68D8aAyMPp7cCE.webp

I'm here.

This is me.

I wouldn't say anything here that I wouldn't also say to a room full of strangers.

At least I would like to be able to delete my own notes

You can, just no guarantees relays will comply πŸ˜…

God forbid people learn opsec