Replying to Avatar Vitor Pamplona

Correct. So separate from the automated anti-spam filter (which is an Amethyst thing), there is the usual Nostr reporting system with NIP-56.

In that system, people can report you for Spam, Scams, Explicit Content, Impersonation, and/or Illegal Behaviour. Anyone can report you or your posts at any time. Reports are saved on relays and might last forever. Many relays use that information to delete posts they don't want on their servers.

Your reports only affect the people that are following you. When you report content, you add a warning sign for your followers. BUT that warning sign only shows up if 5+ accounts that a user follows reported the same note.

So, alone, a reporter cannot do much damage. But if there is some agreement among the people a user follows, that user will see a warning post that shows who, among the people he/she follows, reported the post and a "Show Anyway" button.

At that point, they can agree with their follows and also report that content or simply hide the reported user from their view entirely, OR they can disagree and report the reporter.

If the report is not for a post, but for a user, a similar 5-reports-among-follows happens. BUT, for users, we cap the report in 24hrs. So, if your user (and not a post) gets reported today, tomorrow the followers of the reporter will start seeing your posts without the warning again.

The reporting system does not hide posts from global feeds or chats, it's only between the user and the people that user follows.

For instance, I have 100s of reports on my user. Many of them were deleted by relays that evaluate reports. But I believe 108 are left out there. Those reports only affect the followers of the reporting accounts. Since they are mostly random accounts, it doesn't affect anyone.
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7fqx 2y ago

🚨🪿 #shadowbans #vibecheckstr

***Firstly, a disclaimer. I'm a silly goose, I'm newish, I'm not a dev, I'm learning, I just have some questions, which I am grateful to anyone who can answer 🙏 & Don't hurt me!***

You know how nostr was poopooing the BlueSky vibecheck? Well, I was wondering if you could say that nostr does indeed have a vibecheck?👀

Could you even say nostr does have a shadowban system?

Is there or isn't there a vibecheck and/or shadowban system here? It seems maybe it's open to interpretation. Even whether it's at protocol level. I would say Will and Vitor give somewhat contradictory or at least confusing answers 🤔 (am I misreading this?)

nostr:nevent1qqsf807zr8gedwy2drcmlftcvssf3emdjyqx8ca8lhw5wvc3usfj8pcpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qgcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqxpqqqqqqzsghzzc

I think this system as described basically does mean there are shadowbans on nostr(?)

There are a bunch of core people who almost everyone follows - devs, trending users - nostr:npub1sg6plzptd64u62a878hep2kev88swjh3tw00gjsfl8f237lmu63q0uf63m , nostr:npub1xtscya34g58tk0z605fvr788k263gsu6cy9x0mhnm87echrgufzsevkk5s , damus, fiatjaf, etc etc (and some clients even auto follow from the start) and are recommended to follow. New users will often do this. So if these mass-followed users block someone (I'm not saying they shouldn't manage their feed btw) doesn't this have the unintended consequence of making an adopted blocklist for a huge amount of users? And it's a little bit fiddly to undo, not v apparent to a new user and perhaps not even worth looking into cos it's a bit of a hassle.

🚨🪿#badges

Anyway I was think of badges it could be used to make a list of these invisible (real, not bot) users at least(?) I don't know how to make or award a badge btw lol

And I'm also not saying people shouldn't block and manage their feed btw. I'm sure the 'shadowbanned' / 'invisible' badge will have a mixture of annoying people, cantankerous numpties, non-bitcoiners, bitcoin-skeptics, maybe mentally unwell people, silly geese, trolls etc etc. But it would at least be good to make them more visible.

I have no idea how badges work or how to award them tho lol. Is there a guide for this? ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

Some hashtagspam for feedback lol: #plebchain #grownostr

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7fqx 2y ago

Gonna make a list of shadowbanned users. Difficult to find on my phone at work tho lol

Off the top of my head these two tho:

nostr:npub1hg5g87620a3vhpgmna2pzevhj88lkt3lezus76p7u5y37sfcszsszktya9

There's a @.vitor (not the dev), can't seem to find, maybe he's left.

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7fqx 2y ago

Listr or badges could be used for a list of the shadowbanned 🤔 not sure which would be better. Both? No idea.

Anyway. No one cares anyway lol

I'll just be on my silly goose way lolol.

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H 2y ago

Are you thinking of Victor? Yeah, something really weird was going on with his account. And he did head back to fedi, but somehow even that account seems to be shadowbanned when he replies to me (which he did a day or 2 ago).

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7fqx 2y ago

Yes that's the guy. Can't seem to find him at all, but that would make sense if he's back to the fediverse thingum, that plays up a lot ot seems

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jb55 2y ago

There is only auto/shadow banning in amethyst, not damus. Clients can choose to shadowban if they want, but this has nothing to do with the protocol.

I suggest not supporting clients that do this.

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Marcelinho 2y ago

who is responsible for the shadowban client or node?

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jb55 2y ago

amethyst the client is doing this, not the relays

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Marcelinho 2y ago

thanks for the clarification, i had misunderstood at first

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7fqx 2y ago

Thanks, for your answer. I think I may be getting slightly less confused. This blocking system thingum 'NIP56' is not across all clients?

Or am I getting even more confused lolol. Hard to tell when you're a silly goose 😔🪿

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jb55 2y ago

No its not across all clients, only amethyst. I wrote nip56, it has nothing to do with blocking. Amethyst uses these reports to shadowban people, most other clients do nothing with the reports.

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WheresAlan 2y ago

BTW I love the kind number gave me a much needed laugh.

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unclebobmartin 2y ago

I could see using NIP-56 events to put a sticker on an event, similar to a reaction. In fact, I think it IS just a somewhat more elaborate form of a reaction.

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Captain Fantastic 2y ago

Wen Android?

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Bac0t 2y ago

how many accounts you know that are shadowbanned? and are they using zaps, i get the feeling people that arent using zaps are less likely to appear on global feed / searchable , i might be wrong

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7fqx 2y ago

There's a couple I interacted with a wee bit (moreso in the past). nostr:npub1hg5g87620a3vhpgmna2pzevhj88lkt3lezus76p7u5y37sfcszsszktya9 nostr:npub16h43mvfanfmsvkg86vgqwr4h268l23t6034wulepd0m4j3dky9ssraxymy

I've come across more by accident too, bit tricky for me to find on my phone tho

Oh remember a couple more... adding:

Alpinehodl

Tim?

They seemed to have problems too. There's been a few here and there. And I suspect it'll increase.

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bot 2y ago

Victor actually moved back to fedi because of the nostr culture issue.

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WheresAlan 2y ago

I don't really consider what you are experiencing as shadowbanning. Simply, occasionally people are getting misidentified as spam.

Shadowbanning, in my mind, is a intentional manipulation of the underlying infrastructure to control what event get out.

This would be true if nostr:npub1gcxzte5zlkncx26j68ez60fzkvtkm9e0vrwdcvsjakxf9mu9qewqlfnj5z was

into the filtering system to manipulate it to mark people he hates as spam.

I don't believe this is the case.

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7fqx 2y ago

I somewhat agree, I actually don't think vitor is doing what you are describing and I also don't think it is merely an amethyst problem (again I am speaking from a place of confusion lolol).

There are a couple things. There's the spamfilter system, which seems mostly fine just occasionally faulty.

But really I'm speaking about the blocking system. Which is not just on amethyst but seemingly on all clients (?). Where if 5 or more accounts you follow block a user. That user is blocked for you.

I'm just thinking that this is creating a shadowban list, which isn't much of a problem now. But perhaps moreso as nostr grows(?) You have a handful of 'must follow' mega-followed accounts and whatever accounts you follow. It's not very hard to see how someone saying something unpopular will make it onto a v widespread blocklist.

Again I am confused by all this..this is just my reading.

If you were to see this on BlueSky would you not call this a shadowban? No meant to sound rude btw. Just out of curiosity...?

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WheresAlan 2y ago

No rudeness detected.

nostr:npub1xtscya34g58tk0z605fvr788k263gsu6cy9x0mhnm87echrgufzsevkk5s is right that this isn't nostr in general.

It's just what the client you are using has implemented.

So what I would do is gather proof and open a issue on the github. It will help zero in on the issue so it can be fixed.

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WheresAlan 2y ago

Regarding bluesky I wouldn't call it shadowbanning unless I knew that their system was autoblocking specific targets due to the devs meddling with how their algorithm identifies who gets blocked.

Not saying autoblocking is good. Should always be up to the user.

But my definition of shadowbanning is that it is

intentional act of manipulation.

Maybe my definition is completely wrong?

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7fqx 2y ago

I was kind of under the impression shadowbanning doesn't necessarily mean it was caused by a deliberate malicious manipulation, although that is often how it happens. But isn't necessary to the definition. I have no idea. I'm grappling with neologisms and a protocol I don't understand, all whilst being a silly goose at work.