My reformed peers aren't into Orthodox Iconography, but they are special to me and I like to have a few in my home. ☦️
#ReformedTheology
Discussion
😍🙏
I think it would cool to set up little shrines on isolated mountain paths with little Christian Icons in them. When I visited Japan I thought all the little shrines they had were interesting, besides the whole pagan part.
No, we are not, and neither should any Christian.
You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
Exodus 20:4
^this. Don't understand the appeal of trying to show what Jesus looked like. Any manmade representation we come up with is by definition taking away from His holiness and perfection
I agree that icons of angels and God Himself violates the 2nd Commandment.
Orthodox Christians make a distinction between veneration and worship which is something to consider, although I think having icons in a prayer corner in your home or at church is a slippery slope, especially when you start involving saints, angels, and Mary. Catholics fell off the bandwagon with that, obviously.
Where I have not made my mind up yet, and admittedly enjoy the art and historically accurate representation, is about depictions in art of Christ Himself.
We make movies, books, display the cross, and regularly depict Christ when He was of this earth. Is storytelling and rememberance of Christ "worshipping an idol"? I'm not yet convinced this is a violation of the 2nd Commandment.
Useful snippet from #Grok on the Orthodox rebuke of this view -
Because Christ is the "image (eikon) of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15), Orthodox Christians argue that depicting His human form in icons is not only permissible but theologically necessary to affirm the reality of the Incarnation. Icons of Christ are seen as bearing witness to God’s self-revelation in human form, not as creating a forbidden "likeness" of the divine essence, which remains incomprehensible.
Hey Laser I invite you over to italy and show you some catholic churches, just hit me up with a date
Story telling and worshipping of Christ absolutely is not sinful. Where I personally draw the line based on my studies is when people start making up what he physically looked like. Eyes, skin color, etc. and putting that into art.
Totally get you on the artistic element of it all though. I'm all for even having Jesus represented in art, but just not attempting to show how he physically looked. One day I want to commission a painting of Matthew 21:12-13 but to specially have Jesus be a shadowy figure, or have it be the perspective of looking at His back.
We are surrounded by idolatry in many forms. I've been seeking to understand different groups within the church and what I've learned is how ignorant I have been about the whys and what they actually believe and teach. There are many straw man arguments and people talking past each other. I've have ended up being encouraged by how much we have in common instead of what we disagree on. I think each church tradition and denomination could learn from others if they would pray for humility and prioritize what Jesus commanded. That we love one another.
I visited an Orthodox church as a protestant and asked them about the icons. It was interesting and as a protestant while we don't have icons I see plenty of idolatry around me. We can make almost anything into an idol. The big oversight for me was that for centuries most people were illiterate and only had the church. Not only did they not have direct access to the Scriptures but they couldn't read them even if they had access.
I'm not excusing abuses or things I disagree with within the churches but it helps to understand by asking the people you disagree with and disagree in good faith and love. I think Christians are responsible for turning people away from Christ when we fight and act in anger and hate towards others. Its incredibly sad. Not saying we should devalue truth, but some of us can make it an idol and forget love. We should hold both. The truth in love.
Stay humble. Love the brothers and sisters.
Just came across this note. Well said kepford. I hope every person of faith can read this and get the sense of it.
My rule is that if art depicts a biblical scene, then it's just scripture presented in visual form. It's like a translation, then. It brings the story to life and helps people to become more intimately familiar with the word. I also consider a cross to be acceptable displayed at church or in the home or upon the believer as jewelry, for example. Empty cross only, and a reminder to believers that the cross is empty because Christ is alive, and to take up their own cross to follow him.
Very thoughtful.
This is from Exodus:
Instructions for the Ark of the Covenant from Exodus:
Exo 25:19-20 KJV And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
20. And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
Shared using AndBible: Bible Study. (https://andbible.github.io)
Here is how Solomon built his temple:
1 Ki 6:21-28 KJV So Solomon overlaid the house within with pure gold: and he made a partition by the chains of gold before the oracle; and he overlaid it with gold.
22. And the whole house he overlaid with gold, until he had finished all the house: also the whole altar that was by the oracle he overlaid with gold.
23. ¶And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.
24. And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits.
25. And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of one measure and one size.
26. The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub.
27. And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.
28. And he overlaid the cherubims with gold.
Shared using AndBible: Bible Study. (https://andbible.github.io)
---
The Bible specifically mentions cherubs in temple or sacred construction. With regards to the ark of the covenant the cherubs are facing each other and the holy seat of God is higher and between. They are not too be worshipped. Maybe this was busy work for the Jews to keep them out of trouble. They got in trouble anyway.
Moses comments on his fellow people:
Deu 31:25-27 KJV That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying,
26. Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
27. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?
Shared using AndBible: Bible Study. (https://andbible.github.io)
---
Now with making the graven images:
Exo 20:4-5 KJV Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Shared using AndBible: Bible Study. (https://andbible.github.io)
Lev 26:1 KJV Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God.
Shared using AndBible: Bible Study. (https://andbible.github.io)
More graven images as undesirable -- bonus -- no astrology!
Deu 4:16-19 KJV Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17. The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18. The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
19. And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the Lord thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
Shared using AndBible: Bible Study. (https://andbible.github.io)
Isa 42:8 KJV I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Shared using AndBible: Bible Study. (https://andbible.github.io)
New Testament -- Acts
Act 17:28-31 KJV For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
30. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31. Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Shared using AndBible: Bible Study. (https://andbible.github.io)
---
Your Buddha Rupa, Krishna and all manufactured images are nonsense especially if they be worshipped! You will be judged. Probably not a good idea to prostrate to the manufactured image of Jesus, too.
#Jesus
#Idolatry
#Bible
An icon as a picture that reminds you to take an action doesn't seem to fit in the category of idol.
If that is true, my church needs to destroy a beautiful rose window that has the Lamb of God in the center.
Iconoclasm is an Islamic heresy. A heresy that, at its root, denies the incarnation of God. St. John of Damascus was a great defender of the Christian faith in the face of Muslim persecution. He defends Holy Icons which can be read here. http://www.byzantineimage.com/in-defence-of-icons
Also, this is a beautiful video discussing Holy Icons and their place in the ancient Church.
Reformed aversion to icons has nothing to do with this. It is a conviction about how the 2nd commanment ought to properly be applied to worship and life.
It is also a recognition that while God has a right to create things in his image, such as mankind in general and the incarnation in perfect union of the divine and human natures of Christ, we as creatures do not have that right.
No problem with that. Icons are awesome!
HRISTOS VOSKRESE