Issuance is decentralized, predictable, and requires PoW.
Exact opposite of the money printer and more like gold mining.
Plus, Bitcoin still has an emission. Are all the miners currently robbing the value of your Bitcoin? They're technically inflating the current supply.
BTC is inflating until his end of life (for another 115 years).
No it's not. There is a defined supply cap. It's not inflating, it's distributing what's always been there. After the supply is money, Bitcoin doesn't die 😂. Mining will continue just the same after the last sat is mined.
I'm so glad you are a precog and know that the massive mining infrastructure will be satisfied with fees when bitcoins stops being issued.
IIRC fees rn are a microscopic percentage (1%) of what miners make and by November, 95% of the 21 million bitcoins will have been distributed already.
Having a tail emission is also good for something called replacement. The concept that as time goes on, bitcoins will become unspendable. A tail emissions would not even "inflate" the supply if it matched displacement of burnt or lost coins. Think of a mechanism that would help the actual economic amount of bitcoins to not indefinitely fall at the same time that the value is rising. Not to mention that it provides a stable income (that is actually deminishing over time as the emissions will continue to be a smaller and smaller percentage of the overall amount of monero in circulation). If the tail emission is 1 monero, that 1 monero gets smaller and smaller as a reward over time as the total amount of monero grows...
tldr; Satoshi is not God. He was not perfect. Bitcoin isn't a discovery it's a synthesis of preexisting technology and it needed to be refined after launch. Unfortunately we're at a point where even as problems become apparent it will become increasingly difficult to fix them through consensus changes to the protocol. So IF the lack of a tail emission becomes a burden or misjudgement or causes severe economic or security trade-offs when the last of the 21 million bitcoins are emitted, there's not a lot we'll be able to do to rectify or remedy it.
I was skeptical about it as well (tail emissions). I recommend listening to anything Monero related on The Watchman Privacy podcast. It's a gem.
No they aren't. The protocol is distributing a predefined supply. That's not inflation. That's distribution of what's already there.
Additional supply, that was previous unavailable, pouring into the existing circulating Bitcoin supply is going to affect the value of everyones Bitcoin. Sounds like inflation to me.
That's not inflation. Inflation means the supply increases. Bitcoins supply does not increase. It never has because if it does, it's no longer Bitcoin.
It's inflating the circulating supply until the block subsidy goes away. More to dump on the market that wasn't available before which of course affects value for all current holders.
I'm not arguing that Bitcoin doesnt have a final fixed supply. but thats 100+ years away, so you can't claim there is no inflation to circulating supply yet.
Math is a real thing and people can think in the future. We know the maximum supply. It does not affect value of other coins when new coins come into the circulation.
But none of that supply is on the market to hash out between buyers/sellers, so I'm not so sure that is correct...but agree to think about it for today 🤝
Now that may not be true for you since value is subjective but I will continue to measure my time in the supply of a currency that is fixed
The block subsidy is inflationary. The important thing is that the inflation schedule:
1) halts, and
2) is set in stone and cannot be changed
This makes it trivial to show that the bitcoin supply is capped. This gives every bitcoiner confidence that the value of their investment will not erode.
Confidence is sexy. It makes bitcoin more popular. Money is a natural monopoly. The more popular a form of money is, the more useful it is and the more popular it becomes.
Monero makes different tradeoffs for a different use case. It can't win by copying bitcoin's playbook. I think the tail emission is a good idea to keep the miners mining.
Block subsidy is not inflationary to the supply. The supply is 21 million and block subsidy does not increase that supply. You know that.
It is inflationary to the outstanding supply at the time of issuance. You're not gonna win this argument with semantic technicalities.
Tail emission for miners is printing money for bond holders. It's the fiat system. That's just stealing from holders to pay miners...
Yeah and when you aren't the top dog monetary asset it makes a ton of sense to tax everyone and prop up mining.
It's not stealing because the rules are known and you are free to leave the system if you don't like the rules. You know that.
Is gold mining "stealing to pay miners"?
If you think it's not, explain why it's different from Monero. Anyone can theoretically mine for gold like Monero, it requires "proof of work", and issuance is even more predictable than gold.
If you say yes it is, you would have to explain why mining Bitcoin isn't currently the same thing as gold/Monero mining as it dilutes the current circulating supply in the same way.
Fiat issuance is centralized, unpredictable, and requires no PoW.
Gold, Bitcoin, and Monero dont suffer from any of those qualities.
Bitcoin is in it's own category since it additionally has a fixed supply, but it would be incorrect to say gold/Monero are in the came category as fiat.
No. Because gold, however available, does have a fixed supply. God isn't emitting more gold everytime some gets dug up.
There is always more gold to mine out there. It's not limited to earth. We can create it in labs and it's always being created in stars. Virtually limitless.
The gold was there before it was mined. A tall emission did not exist until AFTER a block is mined. Tell me what did adding the tail emission, make the max supply? What is that divided by everything? Is it... Zero... The math is simple. Monero is 💩.
You think a large influx of gold entering the market wouldn't affect it's price negatively? The fact that it is "there" doesn't matter until the market actually has access to it.
A large influx of gold doesn't enter the market though. It's no more gold enters the market than what people work for. People don't work for a tail emission. It's a given.
It's a hypothetical. If a country dumped their X, Y, or Z on the market it would without a doubt affect it's price. A smaller continuous stream of supply affects it over a longer time scale. Not even sure how that is debatable. There is more out there to satisfy demand all things equal.
But they do work for it. You can't get it without mining. You can't poof it out of thin air. Unless you're trying to say PoW isn't people working for Bitcoin?
Price is not value
Then why do you guys constantly bring up price charts? Price is a proxy for value.
Value is subjective. I don't bring up price charts. That ain't me pal. I really don't give a shit what the ISD price is anymore.
I've seen you say "Monero is going to zero" or bring up price in relation to XMRBTC before. But ok I'm just going to stop or we'll just keep going. Agree to disagre on this one.
I'm still not convinced. In any other market situation, I'm sure everyone here would agree that an increase in supply floating around + same demand = tendency for price to fall. It's the law of supply and demand. I think this is just mental gynmnastics to make a special exception for Bitcoin. So either you think Monero AND Bitcoin mining is inflationary for now (until the day block subsidy ends), or neither of them are.
But I like that I have options that make different trade-offs like you said
But the supply doesn't increase. That's the simple economics of it. If Bitcoin inflated, it's purchasing power would decline, just like you say, just like XMR... But Bitcoin is going up forever. Until you understand that, you'll keep 💩 coining.
But the circulating supply is always increasing. There is more and more to go around which affects the value for everyone that currently holds any. That's inflation.
Wow. Just... Wow.
Miners aren't robbing anyone of anything. If you can't get that right, then the rest of your (very tenuously) formulated arguments just fall apart.
Agree. Miners aren't robbing anyone of anything when they mine whether it's Bitcoin or Monero 🤝
Monero miners are literally benefiting from the cantillion effect. They are given more Monero that didn't exist before. This is to their benefit at the expense of holders purchase power. It's wealth redistribution. It's inflation. That is all theft...
Then so is Bitcoin block subsidy. Miners are increasing circulating supply every ten minutes for 100+ years. But we're arguing past each other.
So if you think bitcoin mining is theft, that means you support Proof of Stake systems like in Ethereum?
I don't think Bitcoin is theft... Because it doesn't have inflation.
Bitcoin currently has higher inflation than monero. Monero's inflation rate asymptotically trends toward zero and is less than Bitcoin's and gold's, and provides long term security for the chain unlike Bitcoin's model. Bitcoin is going to have a catastrophic security budget crisis in the next 2-3 halvings as mining becomes increasingly unsustainable and lack of onchain spending fails to generate sufficient fees to compensate for the dwindling mining subsidy.
What's Bitcoins max supply? What's Moneros?
Max supply is irrelevant at best and detrimental to BTC being money at worst. Due to the perceived opportunity cost of spending Bitcoin now and losing out on future gains, bitcoiners choose to not spend Bitcoin undermining it's purpose as money. This oppoetunity cost of spending Bitcoin is going to increasingly become a problem as mining becomes less and less teneboe for miners. Monero's slight tail emission and uncapped supply make it sound money with a velocity of money in which people still choose to spend in commerce unlike with BTC. It is actually used as a currency due to the fact that the perceived opportunity cost of spending monero doesn't incentivize incessant hoarding like with BTC. Monero is just designed to be better money.
That is a fallacy. When Bitcoin is fully monetized it will just go up at the rate of technological progression passing down cost savings to everyone equally. That's what money has to be able to do first before or can even begin to dream of people holding it so they can exchange it for other things in the future.
bitcoin's max supply will be reached in 2140 and you will be dead, so during our lifetimes, why does bitcoin have higher inflation than monero?
It doesn't. Bitcoin doesn't have inflation... That's a distribution schedule. Not an inflation schedule.
If fiat money stops printing, would you say it only had a distribution phase up to now, and never had inflation?
nostr:nprofile1qqsqxf440czzuzyjswddcumcg6yafpdll55958wvl6w94kk6g7dp6nqpr3mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuur0wf6x2mt0dejhymewvdhk6tcpzemhxue69uhkummnw3ezu7rdwgh8ymmrddej7r374ru he couldn't rebut anything. Resorted to supply! 😂😂😂
