Nostr Web Client

Day 3 of asking monero people to just *show me* an LN transaction so I can see what info they can glean from it

Can you see what channel or address *sent* the money? Can you see what channel or address *received* it? Can you see the *amount sent*? Can you see the *fee paid*?

So far they can't even *show me* a transaction on LN -- let alone any information from it

Calling nostr:nprofile1qqs0npwnpyvheqz7zuvuwvv9k460c0hyqlturds40hhfn34vufvehwcpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujumn0wd68ytnzv9hxgqgdwaehxw309ahx7uewd3hkchsknr3 and nostr:nprofile1qqs27aqdrx96hwx8hqks53ccav65hvlk47dfscumsh22tncnw89t4pgpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduqs6amnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dslku2wh -- maybe yall can help?

MAHDOOD 11mo ago

Bitcoin maxi here. Want to learn more about this.

Lightning definitely provides more privacy than the base chain. But there aren’t enough sats for everyone to open a lightning channel. I think that most people will be using custodial options in the future. That’s my concern and I think that’s a valid one. If lightning offers good privacy, then would liquid be even better? Yes it’s custodial but the user base is small and the risk seems low given the federation model. Are solutions like these the ultimate future for p2p bitcoin?

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Discussion

dangershony 11mo ago

Lightning over liquid is not such a bad idea because the layer where people transact is hidden anyway so even if the federation wanted to censor they couldn't.

sachin 11mo ago

Bro you gotta check out Phoenix and Zeus.

I use them regularly.

Literally any question at all, let me know. Self-custodial LN has come a long, long way. And there's indeed a long, long way to go. But I love the progress so far.

MAHDOOD 11mo ago

I’ve used Phoenix. I heard that it’s not the best for privacy because of the way the infrastructure is setup. Idk what the details are. Zeus seems to be a lot better but lightning is just a pain in the ass in general. Waiting for a simpler solution.

sachin 11mo ago

Yeah but it's a pain in the ass that's worth enduring for me.

It was initially annoying, much like anything new that you have to learn and get used to.

But once I started understanding how things work and worked out my ideas setup, I started loving it.

MAHDOOD 11mo ago

Have you lost sats from channel closures?

sachin 11mo ago

Nope

I've had one force closure but I only incurred the fee for it

sachin 11mo ago

Also, the state of privacy won't be the same as it is right now. Haven't been as dialed in as usual because I'm temporarily deep into the political and economic rabbithole nowadays, but the following are developments to keep an eye on

PTLC's, blinded paths and bolt12 are some of them, trampoline routing.

(Not making any comparison here with other networks, since I only keep track of what's happening with Bitcoin.)

sachin 11mo ago

And taproot adoption in lightning would also be quite an improvement in privacy of course. Zeus already lets you open taproot channels

Super Testnet 11mo ago

> there aren’t enough sats for everyone to open a lightning channel

how many sats are necessary?

MAHDOOD 11mo ago

The common recommendation I’ve heard is that you should open lightning channels with at least 1 million sats. There are about 8 billion people on earth. The math doesn’t add up.

sachin 11mo ago

That's assuming 1 million sats will always be worth what they are now haha

MAHDOOD 11mo ago

Right but if the size of the channel you open gets smaller, at some point it becomes too expensive to open because of the high fees on the base chain. Imagine opening a channel with half a million sats when fees are high. That’s why I’m asking because I’ve heard a lot of bitcoiners talk about this problem and they’ve said that a lot of the transactions have to be done on other layers. Custodial seems unavoidable.

sachin 11mo ago

Not agreeing or disagreeing with you as this can get too speculative.

But I can speak reliably about how I plan and manage my set up.

I make sure I have a decent amount of inbound for my needs, which are quite predictable. I add a slight extra buffer just in case of course.

I either lease inbound from an LSP or open a channel myself and clear out sats to make room for inbound.

I see custodial wallets as a quick temporary fix that I can use as a short-term solution to reduce costs. But I'll eventually shift to self-custodial once the fee market looks more favourable.

MAHDOOD 11mo ago

I’m not even trying to argue i just had legitimate questions. I don’t understand this enough. Does anyone think the future of bitcoin is going to be custodial lightning or some other solution like ecash? Maybe a combination of all these things

sachin 11mo ago

To be honest, I don't think anyone can know. Different people have different needs and preferences on how to custody their sats.

Based on the technical developments and the fee market conditions I've seen so far, I am not worried.

A combination of everything that exists right now and more is a good, 'safe' answer 😂

High Heel King 11mo ago

Ecash

Saberhagen The Nameless 11mo ago

Custodial

Saberhagen The Nameless 11mo ago

https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/lightning-limitations/