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Hello #Nostr

May i have a question about CoinJoin by Trezor?

Yesterday I ordered a limited Trezor on btc only, I was glad I could catch it! There was a lot of information flying around the space about my Ledger nano X that I wasn't quite sure if I wanted to keep my btc on this wallet.

So I made a decision and took action, I was impressed by CoinJoin from the Trezor, as it is important to me that governments don't know that these Satoshi on the wallet are mine.

But today I came across a video from bitcoin university on ytb where a dude urges not to use this CoinJoin, saying it's not safe.

Do we have any nice #Cypherpunks here on #Nostr who would be willing to explain this to me, bcs i dont get it ?

Thanks so much for your time <3

#PV

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Discussion

Wondrej 2y ago

Here is the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp012aP0ZFA

stupleb 2y ago

He said don't use Trezor and don't use Wasabi. He didn't say coinjoining was unsafe.

stupleb 2y ago

If you're talking about Mathew Krater, I'm not sure you understood what he was saying. Coin joining is not "unsafe" and he wouldn't have said that at all. He would have instead criticized the method being used, Trezor and the people behind this implementation saying they went against the ethos of Bitcoin.

Trezor and Ledger are generally both not great options "ethos"-wise for hardware wallets/signing devices.

Wondrej 2y ago

Sounds crazy to me that Trezor is against #Bitcoin ethos.

"Without the freedom to transact, we have no power to secure our rights.

That's why we're here-to help you grab hold of your financial independence and digital security."

Actually they invented a lot of things for security on Bitcoin, so why would they do something vs Bitcoin ethos ?

They are actually opensource also.

https://satoshilabs.com/

https://nostrcheck.me/media/public/nostrcheck.me_6134246013945067831697271046.webp

stupleb 2y ago

They're a shitcoin promoting fiat maximalism company who work with a coinjoining setup that allows for censorship of transactions. Other than that they might be fine people with good hardware.

Wondrej 2y ago

I think you're just getting caught up in the Twitter drama. No offense. Trezor is open source, has the option of Bitcoin only firmware, and made an honest attempt at implementing coinjoins in their Trezor suite. That much is fact.

stupleb 2y ago

What's a Twitter? It's not my fault you asked questions about a video your didn't understand and got facts your refuse to accept.

Mycelial 2y ago

You asked for help, and then espoused how great the protocol is as for a law-abiding citizen.

You are either a spook, or just dumb.

Wondrej 2y ago

It's about the sustainability of the company, isn't it ?

If it wasn't opensource then I would understand it , but this way I just see that some people would rather go to the extreme and throw dirt on someone's hard work with which they do for the Bitcoin ecosystem.Idk at the start i thought there is somenthing bigger then only this, so thats why i stood up for that protocol, the company has to operate in reality and not in some pseudo universe where it would work the way we want it to, where no one would be censored.

Mycelial 2y ago

You are right that companies must protect themselves (and the jobs of the people that work there).

It's almost as if the free and open nature of bitcoin is at odds with entities that must maintain compliance 🤔🤔🤔

Wondrej 2y ago

Yeah, exactly this.

But thanks that u stopped here, the way I asked the first question should have been phrased differently, given the kind vibe of discussion I was looking for.

Unfortunately my English is sometimes nonsensical, especially when I write on freestyle, the fact that English is not my first language shows a lot :D

But every day on #Nostr I learn new things and your note made me rethink my thoughts, and that's always good ! Thanks

Mycelial 2y ago

I understand. Thanks for the discussion. Glad I could help.

Wondrej 2y ago

In my opinion, there is an urgent need for Bitcoin privacy tools that

are accessible to everyday users like me. The coinjoin implementation by Trezor

has been meticulously researched and executed, and their track record

speaks for itself. As a user, I am looking for a simple and secure

solution to enhance my coin privacy, while avoiding any association with

criminal activity. The Wasabi/zkSNACKs+Trezor/SatoshiLabs teams have

put a great deal of thought into addressing this nuanced issue, which

unfortunately requires a deep technical understanding. Did you know they

utilize Tor and block filters to protect incoming UTXOs? Your criticism

of their work is unwarranted, and I urge you to do further research

before making such claims.

stupleb 2y ago

Bitcoin privacy tools exist and are free and open for anyone to use WITHOUT censored transactions. If your don't know about them, yes, you can use Wasabi instead.

Wondrej 2y ago

So you need to sent your btc to service, that may support transactions for child porn and etc. so that will be mine bitcoin connected to immoral actions and then send back to other hw wallet then Trezor ? What wallet and service u can recommend that is allready in hw wallet and easy to use?

I think if btc should work like that, we would start like a monero, but that ship sailed away.

I can see why they, as a company, want to protect themselves from being

involved with immoral actions. I can see both arguments and both are

valid. I personally don't see it as an huge issue. I thought it is kinda bigger deal, when ppls on Xitter still frouding these wallets.

stupleb 2y ago

Ah, the CP fud straight off the bat. Go forth NPC, and drown in your own coddled stupidity and subservience.

Wondrej 2y ago

I was looking for a normal discussion because I wanted to understand what is going on. Thanks for your time, now I get it, but you started calling me an NPC instead of answering my question about the immoral behavior.

I'll quit here, thanks for your time and have a nice day.

#Pv #Nostr

Wondrej 2y ago

If i get it right the point against Trezor is that they partnered with a company that doesn't want to participate in anonymizing BTC that was used for illicit activities, leaving CoinJoin for use by law-abiding anonymizers and reducing their risk of being shutdown like mixers have been, which improves their long-term viability. IMO an overreaction and overly dramatic. Using CoinJoin (which is a choice) seems perfectly harmless to me. They might refuse your coins, but that doesn't make you worse off than if they didn't offer the service.

Wondrej 2y ago

nostr:npub17kvhxlt80pqnnp6cnkph8qvuyvuhwu9fyt0yem4msx62ww489zas3r9wn4

Wondrej 2y ago

🫨🫨

You know world is not black and white.

Although you called me npc like you are the mindgod, you still didn’t answered me that what a service and hw you suggest and if I’m right with that if you mix your coins in these services, governments can took it like a something connected to cp etc. and I can have a problems with that because of government or it is save ?

I don’t really want to struggle with a government or with a banks.

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

Tools are neutral. Tools cannot be good or bad. That is only applicable to the individual using them.

Criminals and immoral people live in houses, drive vehicles, own smartphones, drink water, eat food, etc...I'm assuming you still use all these things

Wondrej 2y ago

Finally someone normal, i got all of your points man ! In that point with immoral thinks im totally losted. Maybe i should not overthink as i do.

Ppls are good and bad, but they should not be censored. I get it now and thanks again for your point ! I learned from it a lot. Wanted to zap you, but i cant. Do u have allowed LN sirr ?

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

Yes, any of these tools must be permissionless and neutral, otherwise it defeats the point of doing any of this. If some centralized power can choose who or who can't use Bitcoin, then it will be abused and biased like anything else. And often the people controlling it are some of the worst to begin with. Think of the ring of power from LOTR. That power eventually corrupts any who wield it even if they start with good intentions.

From the bitcoin white paper: "the main benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required..."

Appreciate it. I don't have LN, but if you want here is my Monero address:

86VVQzMJ9FGGkPcpNC8YXLHLiADQXXRZg7sfbjjsscHfQdU3wDWDhY6UtHApNUGbzmQoAtQZS62QBdnvjBCv9UvaQwbM73n

Wondrej 2y ago

https://nostrcheck.me/media/public/nostrcheck.me_7782962518386841721697271079.webp

Saberhagen The Nameless 2y ago

There are three main coinjoin protocols all with different pros and cons. Main ones are from Wasabi, JoinMarket, and Samourai.

AFAIK nothing is wrong with Wasabi's new protocol Wabisabi 2.0 *itself*. BUT I would avoid Wasabi because they collaborate with chain analysis companies.

JoinMarket is not beginner friendly and from my understanding is not as good as Whirlpool.

The gold standard for coinjoins imo is Samourai Whirlpool + their spending tools (As long as you run your own Dojo).

https://samouraiwallet.com/

Sparrow desktop app also implements it: https://sparrowwallet.com/

As far as hardware wallets...check out SeedSigner. Highly recommended!

https://seedsigner.com/

...Honestly though. I just recommend using Monero for spending if/when you can. Easier, cheaper, and superior privacy than any of these methods. Swap Bitcoin to Monero with a DEX like: https://unstoppableswap.net/

Or a exchange aggregator: https://trocador.app/en/

Or buy directly: https://localmonero.co/

Amounts and addresses aren't even visible on Monero's blockchain to begin with, there is no transaction graph, unlike Bitcoin.

https://localmonero.co/knowledge/ring-signatures-vs-coinjoin

You can still use Bitcoin for saving.