hi nostr.
I'm working on fedimint (thnx nostr:npub10pensatlcfwktnvjjw2dtem38n6rvw8g6fv73h84cuacxn4c28eqyfn34f ) and have general interest in ecash.
if you don't know what that means, what's your most pressing question? if you do, when was the last time you've checked in on the space? It's quite interesting.
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ecash is the one used in cashu right? well.if that it is, the difficulty to restore the wallet concerns me a lot
#Cashu is one #ecash implementation. #Fedimint (what i work on part time), is a different implementation. Cashu is much more mature in its UI/UX so you're more likely to have encountered it. Especially here on nostr.
oh how to use fedimint?
Check out https://www.fedi.xyz/builders
They're a company running fedimint things and help on the protocol. Otherwise, it's really just technical people experimenting and iterating on this new and emerging protocol/tech.
thanks!
I checked out a fedimint iOS app and it was super interesting. Didn’t see any updates in a while so I kind of forgot about it. The nostr development speed spoiled me.
I don't work at Fedi but that's probably the app. Fedimint the open source project just hit versioned release at v0.1.2. Very new but has been in development for a long time. Fedimint is modular as well so not just bitcoin ecash. Working on making the Fedimint have an npub myself (very slowly).
The CEO of Fedi was just on nostr:npub1h8nk2346qezka5cpm8jjh3yl5j88pf4ly2ptu7s6uu55wcfqy0wq36rpev's AI Unchained podcast. Worth checking out!
Yup! I've had the pleasure to meet Obi. Awesome dude. I've gave that one a listen.
I probably should be the one to set one up for family friends, and one for my community, but I'm a little worried about real, or perceived, liability, and the paperwork or worse hassles therefrom. And about the time commitment.
Setup is a bit of work. Running is like any other server. Complexity to run is simple but early. Early stages for most users on the Fedimint side.
There are a so many concepts and terms that people outside the space are unfamiliar with. My most pressing question is what is being done to help educate new users about what these technologies do and how to use them safely?
If you’re new to bitcoin, you have to wrap your head around the protocol and the ledger, and then understand what problem Lightning solves, and on top of that, what ecash and fedimints are.
That’s a lot!
> My most pressing question is what is being done to help educate new users about what these technologies do and how to use them safely?
This note. 😅 But seriously, it's one of my longer term goals is educating people on the topic and generally being a "developer advocate" aka professional tech shill. There's not a lot of content out there focused on it... yet. There's https://fedimint.org and https://cashu.space/ available for consumption and several podcasts on the topic. But as with anything bitcoin, there should be more podcasts.
> That’s a lot!
Definitely, that's why both ecash implementations have opted to do invoicing like lightning for payments and such. You can still dump `cashu...` notes everywhere but otherwise it can be just lightning style payments/interactions. nostr:npub1dx5q2el8nd4eh3eg9t2e25fd7zuqg7zxz6ldkc3uzgh66ss2yc6st288sj is doing big things on this front and with nostr.
correct me if I am wrong:
1. why would I run a cashu mint node (receiving ecash as fee) instead of a lightning node (receiving btc as fee)? Assume the lightining node is behind TOR an/or VPN
2. where does the BTC fee that I would receive running a lightining node go? If that's not a thing, how does it work (minting ecash should be possible at some cost, right?)?any specific doc?
1. because you want ecash? it's offline capabale. the data is the asset. You can receive it on a piece of paper. you don't want to manage liquidity. you don't want the latency of VPN/TOR. you have a service where you already custody users funds and want to provide a different privacy trade off.
2. I have no idea. For Fedimint, someone else can run the lightning node for you and the fee is configurable. For Cashu, I've never run a mint.
I love the concept of ecash, please help me understand how the centralized mint is not able to rug in the time between token created and redeemed?
the mint is holding keys for the bitcoin backing everything. there can be no guarantee. But there can be trade offs. Only running "the right" code is helpful, but really it comes down to trust and risk appetite. I deposit very small amounts in some Cashu mints just to experiment, because I don't trust it enough with larger amounts.
Is it possible to make the mint’s decentralised? So if a mint goes down, other mints can redeem the token?
This is decentralization but rather redundancy. And yes, this is the fedimint model. There are multiple servers running fedimint and coordinating with each other to keep the mint "alive".
Okay, I’ll expose my naïveté for the cause: ecash—is that a shitcoin? I thought it was Bitcoin or bust.
no. some might disagree depending on your terminology. It's privacy preserving 1:1 bitcoin IOUs in a federation model. imho, that's not the coolest part though, it's the module system that enable you to have small consensus of servers on arbitrary data.
Explain in 3 sentences how we can trust that a federation won't rehypothecate our Bitcoin
Trust nothing. The trust is based on the relationship between users and the fedimint guardians aka node runners. See here for a more technical answer about proof of liabilities: https://gist.github.com/callebtc/ed5228d1d8cbaade0104db5d1cf63939
How can I audit the supply of ecash of a certain mint?
bank run. proof of liabilities is an unsolved problem. I do wonder about BitVM being applied to this problem in the future.
more to read here on Proof of Liabilities by nostr:npub12rv5lskctqxxs2c8rf2zlzc7xx3qpvzs3w4etgemauy9thegr43sf485vg
https://gist.github.com/callebtc/ed5228d1d8cbaade0104db5d1cf63939
How is it possible that fedimint coins can be used to pay lightning invoices?
Fedimint uses something called a LN gateway. This is a LN node operator that runs a specific plugin/daemon alongside their node and can offer their liquidity to the fedimint. They're essentially a specialized client of the federation that deals in ecash<->LN contracts. If a LN invoice is given for internal to the mint, it just settles out ecash and the LN isn't touched.
I can get a bit more technical if you're LN tech savvy. or join the Discord and pop into #lightning to chat (chat.fedimint.org)
Ah ok interesting, thank you! I'll def check out the discord
If I'm paying someone who has a different ecash provider, will the QR "just work" ? Can the federation servers settle up on the backend, or do Bob and I both have to be part of the same federation?
It shoudl "just work". Fedimint uses LN nodes are liquidity between each federation and the general LN network. Or you could redeem for on-chain from Bob's mint. This is one part of the UX that is being explored and actively discussed/developed. There's really only one mature client app for fedimint and that's Fedi. I don't have insight into how they do things exactly.
Unclear on the relationship between fedimint and ecash.
I listened to some pods about fedimint and feel positively toward it because we need better on ramps/custody solutions- although 2of3 multisigs seem to be moving much more quickly in that space.
The history of ecash is cool but honestly learning the tech stack for what seems like a totally different system is 🥲
Fedimint is a federation ecash system (and can be much more since it's modular). Cashu is a non-federated ecash system. Both take in bitcoin and issue ecash notes. These ecash notes are 1:1 IOUs for bitcoin but use blinded signatures by the mint to preserve privacy. They also use LN for interoperability between other bitcoin projects/wallets/etc.
happy to go further if this wasn't detailed enough.
also check out https://fedimint.org
