I just realised something fascinating in arguing with normies on the bird app. “credit creation” is talked about like it’s totally normal but it literally makes no sense. you can’t “create credit”. you either have credit or you do not. you can extend your own credit to others, but you cannot “create” it. you have to build it yourself and then transfer it. there is quite literally an element of proof of work involved. people only trust you because you have demonstrated your trustworthiness. it’s a fiat fantasy that you can just whip up (i.e. “print”) credit.

what “create credit” has to be taken to mean is just seigniorage. it’s fascinating to me that this is true by mapping to how fractional reserve and central banking actually works in the real world, but also in the linguistic scheme of the euphemism. by failing to extend *your own* credit, you are necessarily extending that of absolutely everybody else - without their consent, of course. it is blatantly fraud when framed this way (it’s blatantly fraud anyway, but I like how this framing forces the issue).

I realise this is just semantics but it’s fun when you catch them in these little traps that reveal they are just repeating things they’ve never actually thought about. next time somebody says “credit creation,” make sure you snap at them and explain what credit really is 😉

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semantics therefore reality 🤔

Don’t bring logic into this.

So credit card extending me credit they don’t actually have is NOT creating credit? 😆

In fiat land they are always distorting language and changing definitions to continue the lie. Inflation, vaccine, man woman, violence, credit... It never ends.

💯. «DeFi»

Amen. People thinking 2% inflation and credit creation without opportunity cost is normal are going to learn a hard lesson when the system finally crumbles

Actually that’s not how banking works.

A bank doesn’t need any money to make a loan.

The Central Banks can create money to buy government bonds, but that’s not how the majority of money is created.

The majority of money in supply is created by commercial banks who create money by making loan.

They DO create credit.

When you get a loan they don’t transfer reserves to you, they merely add credit to your account from nowhere. They record this loan as a liability for you and an asset for them.

I don’t think you read what I said.

Maybe I missed some inflection?

But credit IS literally created every day in every bank.

Horses mouth…

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/explainers/how-is-money-created

trust me, I know how banks work. the point being made there is about language.

So just a different definition of the word “credit”?

no, an examination of what “credit” means.

I just think arguing about this stuff from the perspective of normative ethics to demonstrate the folly of the system is severely misguided. I think people can say "fractional reserve banking is fraud" until the cows come home, and unless governments outright banned it, the incentives to do it will persist indefinitely. Because there's actual productive efficiencies to be found in time arbitrage markets, even though they contain obvious tail-risks.

I find it amusing that people think FRB is merely a creature of the state, and that a stateless market maximalist society would collective come to understand it is fraud through universally accepted ethics, in the vein of Rothbard or Hoppe. I think FRB would not only exist, but there'd be even more extreme versions of it.

who thinks this?

AnCap bitcoiners often appear to.

well then they are very silly, aren’t they?

🙋‍♂️

You can create credit defined as a contractual agreement between two parties. You cannot create creditworthiness, as you either have credit or you do not. 'Credit creation' typically refers to the former meaning of the word credit.

That's what's insidious about indoctrination.

Naive beliefs, following without looking and trusting without questioning

I find it useful to think of "credit creation" as banks giving businesses and individuals authority to devalue everyone else's money a little bit. The actual transfer of value is from the entire population to loan recipient, the bank are just a routing node.

To clarify: The banks are a routing node that collects exorbitant fees (in the form of interest and repayment)

okay so basically money is ecash, all N banks are guardians in a 1 of N multisig fedimint, and the fedimint has no actual reserves except some of its own tokens 🤣

💯 😂

If I’m understanding you right, it’s a catch-22 and often the biggest reason small businesses globally suffer from traditional banking system - you have to have lots of funds to loan lots of funds, or show a high level of confidence in repayment. So yea, the credit journey doesn’t start out of nothing

I think it’s even more insidious than that because the money (which is everybody else’s credit) is created out of nothing. loans come before deposits. so what banks are doing is writing themselves themselves claims on real assets that it is somebody else’s responsibility to pay off.

the whole “but access to credit is important to start and grow businesses” line is complete and utter bullshit because, as you say, you need assets to be claimed against to get the loans. If you don’t have them already, you get extra pwned because you stand to lose more than you put up if you can’t pay back the loan. so you take on inordinate risk, *in an environment of dramatic capital misallocation and some or other level of price inflation* and the bank gets nearly all the benefits.

none of this would be true with equity finance. literally none of it: no collateral, no undercollateralized loan exposure, no systemic capital misallocation, no mismatched risk, no circulation credit, no inflation, and arguably no “bank” as such: just an investment intermediary that has to manage its risks with no possibility of a bailout rather than literally assigning itself other people’s wealth.

Is this the new Allen tagline of 2023? “Where do banks get the assets from ?” Lol

You’re right - banks practice their fractional-reserve system - ideally low risk, and if high risk there’s new investment banks, credit unions (post Lehman brothers fiasco). We have credit guaranteed schemes by gov’t here up to 70% , but systemic privilege by race.

Equity financing is high risk, high returns. 10x returns or more, but 80% - 90% failure rate. Also lots of systemic issues globally

I’m gonna need another shirt …

Drop the merch! Show them where’s the yield is from!

convert credit into cash?