I am an open-minded skeptic and I challenge what I think I know, rather than try to confirm it. But that doesn't mean I disagree with the 'establishment' or 'mainstream' on lots of things. Only on a few things. Only where the evidence leads me.

In particular, I agree with mainstream nutrition science. And I know far more about it than I let on (even though I don't practice it). I've followed it since the 70s and have too many books. I was raised a vegetarian by an SDA mother who preached the Ellen White "health message" to us kids growing up. I remember the science even then showing SDAs living something like 9 years longer than everybody else. My great grandmother (an SDA) lived to 99. I'm a member of the CR society and used to post on that newsgroup for years. I let myself lapse in the last 15 years and let myself be convinced by passing fads, articles, and meta-analyses that meat is good for you and that keto is good for you (and I ended up with a property that had sheep on it so I learnt to farm sheep) and I sorta thought the mainstream view had moved past low-fat diets on to low-carb ones. But I dug into it today and... nope. I was just fooled by what has become popular online.

You keto diet people are going to die of heart attacks in your 50s and 60s. You will seem healthy right up until the end. Fit, lean body mass, top form. Then pop, you're dead. The science was in 50 years ago and is only more certain now. Don't be fooled by supplement salesmen or beef industry lobbyists. If you want a social media influencer, listen to nostr:npub108pv4cg5ag52nq082kd5leu9ffrn2gdg6g4xdwatn73y36uzplmq9uyev6 . Veganism is very close to the most healthy diet and he'll probably live past 100. I will still tease him about it though. Fucker... trying to outlive us... how dare he!

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The studies of random villages where people live to 100+ all has them eating meat, none of them are vegans.

Not sure what your argument is that meat-heavy diets is going to lead to young heart attacks but conflating that with vegans living longer seems off base.

I'm not familiar with these studies, but I suspect you are misinformed. I'm happy to read them if you have links.

The largest, longest, best designed research shows vegans living longer and heavy meat eaters having high levels of atherosclerosis.

It is not an argument, I'm not logically deducing anything. It is the results of the biggest and best studies.

Even the nutritional researchers tend to live to 100 or more, probably because they follow the results of what they study. Ancel Keys lived to 100, Dame Harriette Chick to 102, Dr John Sharffenberg is 99 or 100 now, whereas Atkins died in his 70s, Pennington (who Atkins based his diet on) died at 56, Charles Poliquin died at 57, etc. There are lots of long-lived vegetarians, seventh day adventists, Okinawans, nutrition researchers, etc. The studies on longevity show what they eat, and it's usually close to vegan. But the best predictor is actually conscionciousness, then income level (diet seems to follow from both of those -- conscientious enough to actually rigorously do the right diet, and rich enough to afford all those fresh fruits and vegetables).

sorry sir but this is so so wrong 🫡, so wrong in fact I'm leaning on the fact the last paragraph is sarcasm😂

How dare you! 😆

Imagine non-ironically claiming you mistrust the mainstream but not about the food pyramid.

The food pyramid was not mainstream nutrition science. It was USDA propaganda. The USDA represents the commercial farming industry, not the eating customers.

From what I gathered, you believe high cholesterol will kill people early. That's the premise for the food pyramid and the propaganda push against real foods from the 70s - margarine instead of butter and the like.

A lot of people have real health issues due to the mainstream propaganda right now, believing the human body does not need animal products to function at 100%. Virtue-signalling until the body starts breaking down.

They weren't wrong about the cause of atherosclerosis, they were just wrong about how to fix it.

hilarious

i'm 47 and artificial sweetners and potato chips were killing me... type 2 diabetes... i was losing my vision and starting to get really bad muscle weakness, what tipped me off was that i was getting infections on my skin that took really aggressive use of peroxide to stop, i looked up "persistent infections" and sure enough it's a symptom of diabetes

my diet was not a lot different to "normal" "healthy" diet recommendations, mostly carbs, but it is and has always been a bad diet for my genetics, my grandmother got alzheimers and now i am quite certain it was from amyloid plaques from chronic high blood sugar levels, she was similar physique also, never really quite got fat, her skin aged a lot slower than average (probably close to average for asian)

so, yeah, there's a reason why i am avoiding grains and starches, and i've never felt better in my life than now

i can consume carbs in small amounts now without big problems but not long ago it was a constant battle

sugar metabolism should not be the dominant mechanism in operation in a human body in general, it produces a lot of oxidative free radicals compared to the direct use of fats for glycogen production, and it leads to all kinds of problems including heart disease and cancer, nothing feeds cancer better than glucose, and low blood sugar starves cancer

eating seeds is a new thing in human diets, only first appeared about 15,000 years ago and prior to that what else could humans have been eating for the previous 250000 years of the time our species has existed??? mostly meat

Nutrition should not be guided by religion. Eating like your ancestors is a better starting point. Check out KenDBerry on you tube. Keep searching✌️

Nutrition should not be guided by religion. This is very correct. I doubt studies that come out of Loma-Linda University for that very reason, even though they have been vetted by the industry.

Eating like your ancestors is a good starting point. That will optimize your chances of reproduction. Evolution doesn't select for longevity which is a very different endpoint.

I've seen enough of Dr Ken D Berry, Family Physician. He is not a nutrition researcher, he is a YouTuber. He is good at speaking and convincing people of things. He doesn't know what he's talking about and is far too sure of it. He rejects epidemiology for good sounding reasons, but doesn't explain the much worse problems of the studies he chooses to accept. The idea that meat must be good because we evolved eating meat (our ancestral food) sounds almost unassailably correct... but there are ways to assail that theory. Evolution selects for reproduction not longevity. And also our ancestors might have eaten huge amounts of vegetables and fruits that didn't fossilize, we don't know they ate a lot of meat. And also higher meat diets might be perfectly healty as long as you are skin and bones and near starving like an Amazon hunter or an African tribal person. Do you see how eating a lot of meat isn't obviously healthy, how that theory could be wrong? But the biggest reason to disbelieve it is the mountains of research on humans done over the last 80 years that show it's not true.

Thanks for the response✌️Will agree to disagree.

Fucking tigers eat meat killing innocent animals and look what happened to them, they are on the verge of extinction

word

I clicked the heart by accident and now I can't unclick it. Keto / carnivore are awesome. doc tells me my cholesterol is too high and I look them straight in the eye and say I don't care. My CAC risk score for heart disease is a big fat zero.

One of the reasons they don't give people CAC tests generally unless their risk is super high, at least in most countries, is because they might get a score of zero and then think they are safe and go on ignoring their doctor's advice. Studies showed that if you are low risk for other reasons, CAC 0 subjects have low chance of events. If you are high risk by other measures, CAC 0 subjects still have a high risk of cardiac events in the near term. So the whole CAC scoring thing is discredited as not adding any additional value beyond the other biomarkers. Bayes Theorem applies here. If pretest risk was high, a score of 0 does not mean you have low chance of a heart event - it simply doesn't supercede the priors. Anyhow that's what this study says: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.108.767665

Also, lots of research that ApoB levels are strongly positively associated with atherosclerosis progression. A lot of keto people (not all of them) have high LDLs which are representative (but not a perfect measure) of ApoB (which they unfortunately rarely test directly). Huge amounts of study and research went into determining this, that it was ApoB coorelated, not triglyceride or blood sugar coorelated (for example). They might be wrong, but to overturn that would need a lot of evidence of something else.

I forgot to say stack plates and don't draw the short straw genetically.

Vegan versus keto diets is a false dichotomy. The biggest predictor of living a long healthy and happy life isn't diet or even exercise but relationships. What makes us sick in the modern world isn't because we eat meat or don't eat the correct vegetables. We are sick because we live in a highly toxic environment AND eat highly processed garbage (not biochemically and metabolically adapted to) AND we're losing our communities.

Metabolically compromised people can benefit from a diet fine-tailored to their individual condition (paleo to keto spectrum). People with autoimmune conditions can benefit from an elimination diet of which carnivore is a good pick. I have very close examples in my life of how a vegan diet can have horrendous consequences if you have the wrong undiagnosed autoimmune condition.

The last few decades have been riddled with bad science around diet and health in general. Let's not pray on the alter of Scientism. We can't take the health and lifespan of one set of religious people living in close communities in a clean environment and jump to the conclusion that it's only the consequence of their particular diet.